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No. I have read the New Testament many times and I am pretty sure that phrase you used is not in those verses. So I am asking you to quote the verse you think uses that exact phrase.
In such a scenario, salvation is not through forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Jesus but is based on becoming worthy of heaven whether we are forgiven or not. We would be accepted on the basis of being worthy and our former sins wouldn't matter even if they weren't forgiven because our current state is perfection and therefore it doesn't matter what we did in the past. But if we commit some minute sin in the present or the future after having been perfected, then we are in a load of deep doo-doo because now we are no longer worthy of heaven. So if we die in that state we have now been separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, through things present or things to come.
And this is simply not biblical.
'nuff said!
A phrase has to be used in a passage for it be valid? I thought comprehension was the most important thing.
An alcoholic who has been clean and sober fifty years still considers himself an alcoholic and calls himself one in the context of his AA meetings.Justbyfaith:
You have to convince me how it is morally superior of your position than mine to say that believers can say they are "justified sinners." This to me is starting out at an immoral position to begin with. Convince me how it is good using a real world example in saying we are evil people and how that leads us into being good guys.
From my experience in real life, if you focus on the negative or in affirming you are bad, then you are going to attract those bad things to you and make that your reality. Any hope of doing good or being good fades away into the dust.
Alcoholics join drug programs and can overcome the sin of alcoholism. This by a human program they can overcome sin. But with Jesus, He can help a believer to do so much more (See Romans 13:14, and 1 John 3:8).
When you say you are a justified sinner, you are implying that you can never truly obey God ever because you are declaring you are sinner. A person declares themselves to be a certain way based on their actions. A fire fighter is a fire fighter because he fights fires. He could be an ex fire fighter because he retired or something, but he would not currently be a fire fighter if he retired.
Exactly. I thank God that He led me out of that type of thinking.
I am looking for the exact wording you used in those verses. How about just the words of how "You must believe in the finished work of the cross to be saved alone."
Try reading 1 John 1:7 again in prayer. It says you actually have to walk in the light (Abide in God and keep His commandments or love your brother) whereby the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
Also see Hebrews 5:9, too.
Me too!Exactly. I thank God that He led me out of that type of thinking.
Me too!
Honestly He's started leading me out of the works-salvation stuff recently.
The scribes and Pharisees were impeccably righteous outwardly.Jesus did not tell the Pharisees to ignore their immorality and just believe on Him.
An alcoholic who has been clean and sober fifty years still considers himself an alcoholic and calls himself one in the context of his AA meetings.
You said:In a similar manner, Paul said that it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
You said:I am of the opinion that Paul wants every one of us to adopt this saying, including the part of it that admits that I am the chief of sinners. As I should say it, so you should say it.
Of course, Paul called himself the chief of sinners in the present tense even though he was formerly a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious.
So when I call myself a justified sinner, I call myself that in the same sense that Paul said that he was the chief of sinners.
See also Proverbs 20:5.
You said:For many years I sought to promote the idea of sinless perfection for salvation and came up at a dead end so many times that now I have chosen to take the opposite side of the spectrum with people who are passionate about the subject in order to draw out from them some fighting words that will convince me of the reality of the issue once again.
Because in seeing that the people who normally opposed my pov as a proponent of entire sanctification were born again believers; and because I considered that Philippians 2:3 needed to be my attitude towards them, I finally realized that they were right and I was wrong:
and that salvation is primarily the forgiveness of sins and not the attaining of worthiness.
You said:We will obtain worthiness when we receive our glorified bodies. But before this we are clothed in His robes of righteousness; and also we are justified as the ungodly; our faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:5). He forgives us, He covers our sins; and He also will not ever impute sin to us if we place our trust in His finished work (Romans 4:6-8, John 19:30).
That is awesome brother! You are on the right track.
The scribes and Pharisees were impeccably righteous outwardly.
Once we are forgiven, He is able to place His love in our hearts to the greatest extent (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19).No one can keep all the commandments or love his brother perfectly. Hence why I trust Christ alone.
Actually it's sister. Lol. But yes I think it's awesome too. He's using Youtube videos.
How did you realize works-salvation was false?
Once we are forgiven, He is able to place His love in our hearts to the greatest extent (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19).
But it can never be attained to by our striving to be good. It must be utterly and completely our response to having been forgiven (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19)
I was actually thinking of it along the lines of entire sanctification. I felt that I needed to be made perfect by Christ in order to be saved.Actually it's sister. Lol. But yes I think it's awesome too. He's using Youtube videos.
How did you realize works-salvation was false?
Again, this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told to endure unto the end for salvation. We are told to KEEP ourselves in the love of God.
I was actually thinking of it along the lines of entire sanctification. I felt that I needed to be made perfect by Christ in order to be saved.
God showed me otherwise when in my extensive time of Bible reading (very organized and thorough) I somehow came across Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14 in the same reading session! How the Lord managed to put those scriptures together in my personal reading time had to be an absolute miracle in my opinion! It opened my eyes to the fact that I am a sinner and that my only hope for salvation is the forgiveness that Christ offers; rather than what I had previously been striving for: sinless perfection in order to be saved!
Justice, love, faith, and mercy are all aspects of what it means to believe in Jesus.But they ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus did not say.... "Oh hey guys. Don't worry about ignoring the weightier matters of the Law, just believe me as your Savior and I will take care of that." Jesus did not say such a thing.
Wow my friend! There are scriptures that were set there right in front of you that show you that what I said is what the scripture teaches! The verses you are quoting are on the tails side of the coin of scriptural truth.
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