LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

BigDaddy4 · May 21, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Simple logical questions were actually addressed

Pot meet kettle.

Anto9us · May 22, 2018

I thought of things in line with the OP when read 1st and 2nd Nephi (as far as I got in BOM)

Nephi uses exact words of Apostle Paul - 2 Nephi 4:17 "O wretched man that I am!"

4:19 - 'I know in whom I have trusted' sure sounds a lot like

2Ti 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Anto9us · May 22, 2018

2 Nephi 4:18 'the sins which do so easily beset me'
cf from writer of Hebrews

Heb 12:1

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Anto9us · May 22, 2018

"... for the Spirit is the same yesterday today and forever" 2 Nephi 2:4

2:8 "...Holy Messiah who layeth down his life according to the flesh and taketh it again by the power of the spirit"

These and other passages got me thinking "This stuff is written by a man in the 1800's familiar with the KJV, not some ancient Israelite!"

and it will be hard to convince me otherwise

Anto9us · May 22, 2018

1 Nephi 22:14 "...that great and abominable church shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it"

Not only the word CHURCH, but an exact phrase out of one of Christ's sayings from a parable -- centuries after the time this was supossedly written by Nephi -- now COME ON!

Anto9us · May 22, 2018

It's just all too fantastical, I mean as far as all the Isaiah stuff verbatim, that is referenced as being Isaiah so it's not plagiarism -- but exact phrases from Paul, Hebrews and Jesus' parable on house built on sand? Being put in the mouth of supposedly centuries-earlier Hebrews?

No. An American man in early 1800's made all this up, and was so drenched in King James Bible he couldn't keep it out of the mouths of alleged ancient prophets

so steeped in head-knowledge of KJV and its language that he couldn't successfully keep it out of the mouths of these made-up Israelites...

why didn't he just write in 1830 American English? Because it SOUNDED HOLIER and more spiritual - sounded more like Bible-talk.

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

Ironhold said:
Doesn't matter what the original words were in this case, as the translation uses words that are out of place.

That's the exact same standard as the OP: even if a word is translated to something out of place, it still condemns the entire translation regardless of the original word.

original words do mater, esp when phraseology does not exist in Egyptian of the Old Testament times.

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

"Smith copied the KJV blindly, not showing awareness of translation problems and errors in the KJV. Yet the Book of Mormon is not a slavish copy of the KJV—there are numerous words deleted, revised, or added to the text. Rather than translate from an ancient document, Smith seems to have quoted from Matthew 5-7 of the KJV and to have made certain revisions as a response to the English text of the KJV."What Are 1769 KJV Edition Errors Doing in Book of Mormon?

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

"There are other similar mistakes where the Book of Mormon includes the spurious KJV readings in 3 Nephi 13:13 (cf. Matt 6:13), Mosiah 3:7 (cf. Luke 22:44), 3 Nephi 12:44 (cf. Matt 5:44), and 3 Nephi 13:4 (cf. Matt 6:4). And there are many more, but these will suffice to show the true origin of the Book of Mormon. On a related note, 2 Nephi 15:25 copies the KJV translation error of Isa 5:25 (s/b "refuse" or "dung" not "torn").

There are also internal inconsistencies within the Book of Mormon, which is exactly what you would expect if Joseph Smith invented the text. For example, in 2 Nephi 5, we are told how when Nephi landed in the New World, things like gold, silver, and all manner of precious gems were too be found everywhere in abundance. Only a short time later, they built a temple much like Solomon's except that no gold, silver, or precious gems were used "because they were not to be found upon the land"! Another example: in early editions of the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 21:28 read "King Benjamin", which is an anachronism because he was long since dead by the time of the events that supposedly occurred in that chapter. "Serious Errors In The Book of Mormon

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

"
State of New York v. Joseph Smith.

Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an impostor.

Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business."Issue 68 - Salt Lake City Messenger

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

"
The Arrest Records of Joseph Smith from 1826 to 1830 are Rediscovered and Given to the Mormon Church.

�Joseph Smith's Arrest Record Surfaces In New York�� excerpt:
�``It is not a small thing. These are important papers to a major religion,'' she said. ``It's a piece of the historical puzzle that was missing for nearly 35 years.'' �

� The documents include arrest warrants, court transcripts and legal bills from four separate charges filed against Smith. Storms said the cases involved Smith's involvement in glass looking, or treasure seeking, and being a disorderly person. �

�One of the documents includes a bill from then-South Bainbridge Justice Albert Neely to the county for services rendered. Included in the bill is a $2.68 charge for fees in examining the case of ``Joseph Smith, the glass looker.''The Arrest Records of Joseph Smith from 1826 to 1830 are Rediscovered and Given to the Mormon Church
"

Daniel Marsh · May 25, 2018

Joseph Smith's 1826 Glass Looking Trial — Testimonies / Records:Joseph Smith 1826 Glass Looking Trial Testimonies — Joseph Smith the glass looker

Ironhold · May 26, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
"
State of New York v. Joseph Smith.

Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an impostor.

You're relying on the 1826 bit?

Mormon/LDS Answers: Questions about LDS Prophets and the Mormons

(note: long)

What took place was a pre-trial hearing. There's no evidence to indicate that it went any further.

edit -

Did you check any apologetic sites for information on this before posting?

I ask as this information is from what I've seen pretty widely known. Full-length debunkings date back to at least 2002, if not earlier. Even a surface examination should have shown this.

A_Thinker · May 30, 2018

Ironhold said:
Several passages in the Old Testament reference "steel" before steel would have actually existed. They're "out of place", right?

From Wikipedia ...

Ancient steel

Steel was known in antiquity and was produced in bloomeries and crucibles.

The earliest known production of steel is seen in pieces of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehoyuk) and are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from 1800 BC. Horace identifies steel weapons such as the falcata in the Iberian Peninsula, while Noric steel was used by the Roman military.

The reputation of Seric iron of South India (wootz steel) grew considerably in the rest of the world. Metal production sites in Sri Lanka employed wind furnaces driven by the monsoon winds, capable of producing high-carbon steel. Large-scale Wootz steel production in Tamilakam using crucibles and carbon sources such as the plant Avāram occurred by the sixth century BC, the pioneering precursor to modern steel production and metallurgy.

The Chinese of the Warring States period (403–221 BC) had quench-hardened steel, while Chinese of the Han dynasty (202 BC – 220 AD) created steel by melting together wrought iron with cast iron, gaining an ultimate product of a carbon-intermediate steel by the 1st century AD.

Anto9us · May 30, 2018

Steel existed anciently, yes.

The word "Bible" in the Book of Mormon is an anachronism when it is supposedly put in the mouth of an ancient Israelite prophet -- see the other thread here about BOM using the word BIBLE

mmksparbud · May 30, 2018

Ironhold said:
The argument that "if a word is out of place, the whole work is a forgery" is enough to condemn the KJV.

Don't believe me?

Grab a KJV and verify the verses at the link below:

Scriptures Search Results

Several passages in the Old Testament reference "steel" before steel would have actually existed. They're "out of place", right?

I'll give you a chance to explain how the KJV is safe but the BoM isn't.

It would be best if you do not use Mormon literature to try to disprove Christianity!
This is what your site states:

Job 20:24
24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

Job 20:24

New International Version
Though he flees from an iron weapon, a bronze-tipped arrow pierces him.

New Living Translation
When they try to escape an iron weapon, a bronze-tipped arrow will pierce them.

English Standard Version
He will flee from an iron weapon; a bronze arrow will strike him through.

New American Standard Bible
"He may flee from the iron weapon, But the bronze bow will pierce him.

King James Bible
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.
Christian Standard Bible
If he flees from an iron weapon, an arrow from a bronze bow will pierce him.

Contemporary English Version
While running from iron spears, they will be killed by arrows of bronze,

Good News Translation
When they try to escape from an iron sword, a bronze bow will shoot them down.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If he flees from an iron weapon, an arrow from a bronze bow will pierce him.

International Standard Version
Though he dodges an iron weapon, a bronze arrow will pierce him.

NET Bible
If he flees from an iron weapon, then an arrow from a bronze bow pierces him.

New Heart English Bible
He shall flee from the iron weapon. The bronze arrow shall strike him through.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If that person flees from an iron weapon, a bronze bow will pierce him.

JPS Tanakh 1917
If he flee from the iron weapon, The bow of brass shall strike him through.

New American Standard 1977
“He may flee from the iron weapon, But the bronze bow will pierce him.

Jubilee Bible 2000
He shall flee from the weapons of iron, and the bow of bronze shall strike him through.

King James 2000 Bible
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of bronze shall strike him through.

American King James Version
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

American Standard Version
He shall flee from the iron weapon, And the bow of brass shall strike him through.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He shall flee from weapons of iron, and shall fall upon a bow of brass.

Darby Bible Translation
If he have fled from the iron weapon, the bow of brass shall strike him through.

English Revised Version
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of brass shall strike him through.

Webster's Bible Translation
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

World English Bible
He shall flee from the iron weapon. The bronze arrow shall strike him through.

Young's Literal Translation
He fleeth from an iron weapon, Pass through him doth a bow of brass.

Now---why is it that your literature state that Job 20:24 says steel and most other translation says bronze? Iron has been found dating from 7000 years ago.
Bronze is at least 3500 years old.

mmksparbud · May 30, 2018

I asked once why the BOM uses the word church. That was a Greek word that did not exist in the Hebrew culture. They used the words temple and synagogue only. Right now I can't remember the passage.

Ironhold · May 30, 2018

mmksparbud said:
It would be best if you do not use Mormon literature to try to disprove Christianity!

I was making a point specifically about the KJV, which up until just recently was the #1 English translation used by Protestant groups in the US.

mmksparbud · May 30, 2018

Ironhold said:
I was making a point specifically about the KJV, which up until just recently was the #1 English translation used by Protestant groups in the US.

Specifically KJV----written when? How much longer after steel already in use? That is not even out of line in the least. But using the word church long before it was ever used---the use of the word bible--long before it ever was even thought of---same thing with the word satyrs.

Anto9us · May 31, 2018

LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

It's a new season...

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