What one would learn from Mahabharat?

baobobtree said:

I really don't see why we have to turn this into a debate here. Arunma has said before that he finds non-Christian religions to be evil, and we always end up turning threads into debates because of that. None of us are really benefiting from these debates, the only thing that will happen here is that (as usual) the thread will most likely be locked. We are free to believe as we do, and Arunma free to believe as he does.

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YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT SUCH PEOPLE ARE THE REASION FOR WAR, RIGHT?

arunma said:

From a secular perspective, the Mahabharatha is a fine piece of literature, and I enjoy its story quite a bit. Theologically speaking, it's only going to be useful to you if you want a lesson in idolatry and evil, so that you may reject the grace of the true and living God. Read it for fun if you're interested in ancient literature, but no part of the Hindu religion contains any truth at all.

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I essentially agree.

Even apart from the fact that other Hindu scriptures condone idolatry

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I'm just curious, but in this context, how are you defining 'idolatry'?

vedickings said:

YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT SUCH PEOPLE ARE THE REASION FOR WAR, RIGHT?

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No, apparently this is not as intuitively obvious as you make it out to be. It seems to me that you invented this statement ad hoc, and that it has no basis in reality. In fact many anabaptist denominations of Christianity are pacifistic, and they also think that you're going to hell for being a Hindu. To say "such people are the reason for war" obviously constitutes grasping at straws, and I doubt you have any reason to say this other than that you don't happen to like what I believe about Hinduism.

indianx said:

I'm just curious, but in this context, how are you defining 'idolatry'?

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Idolatry is the worship of any deity besides the Triune God, or representation of the true God with a physical image.

Idolatry is the worship of any deity besides the Triune God

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Well, that can't be helped.

or representation of the true God with a physical image.

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Could you perhaps expound on this just for the sake of clarity? You're probably tired of hearing the 'cross' response.

or representation of the true God with a physical image.

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I take it you're not a fan of the Anglican, Lutheran,Orthodox or Catholic church.

Well for short the Mahabharata is about the great tale of the Bharata dynasty. I have read this book once in it's entirety, and it was a such a spirtual blessing. I never thought thousands and thousands of verses would evoke such divine inspiration. The book always reminded me that in the end goodness always prevails against evil.

The other day my cousin made me watch the Lord of the Rings. While watching the movie, I felt the same feeling when reading the Mahabharata.

If you want to learn more, I would suggest reading it. Me explaining it's entirety would be a disservice to you.

Sarva Mangalam.

arunma said:

No, apparently this is not as intuitively obvious as you make it out to be. It seems to me that you invented this statement ad hoc, and that it has no basis in reality. In fact many anabaptist denominations of Christianity are pacifistic, and they also think that you're going to hell for being a Hindu. To say "such people are the reason for war" obviously constitutes grasping at straws, and I doubt you have any reason to say this other than that you don't happen to like what I believe about Hinduism.

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I don't know about VedicKing's reasons but the response you gave (highlighted) seems to be at the heart of all religious troubles.
Its like "I condemn your religion. Your god(Krishna, If I recall correctly) is a demon. Hindu's are in dire need of salvation. I know for a fact that many anabaptist denominations of Christianity think that you're going to hell for being a Hindu. Only my religion is true. Islam is terrorism. Even though I say this to your face, it is no reason to say that people like me cause wars. You are just grasping at straws"

This is how your post above looks to me. my entire post is a collection of things I read in some of your posts so far. I mean no offense. Just tying to give you someone else's perspective.

arunma said:

Sorry, but you're making an extrapolation that doesn't agree with the Bible. The Lord Jesus' analogy to the serpent makes it quite clear that God intended for its use as a sign of their trust in him. The text doesn't support your interpretation that the bronze serpent was a concession to the ignorance of the Israelites.

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Unfortunately brother, you rely heavily on bible commentaries as your only source of interpretation. Not that I am saying your interpretation is incorrect, but biblical verses have many meanings which are simultaneously literal, deep, and prophetic. Sometimes you have to use your common sense.

Now if you were bit by a snake would you fashion an idol and stare at it hoping you would be saved from death? Of course not, because if you did you would be ignorant. Instead, you would pray for divine healing. Therefore, even though God told Moses to fashion this idol, it was not the snake that saved the Jews from death, it was God Himself. They were so ignorant that they did not realize this, and when Jesus mentioned this, the Jews were still ignorant. You are correct it was a sign of the Messiah, but what is the point of it being a sign if you do not understand the point of the sign.

arunma said:

And if you disagree with me, then feel free to support your claims with Scripture.

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Yeaaah well, I have done this numerous times, and you either respond with empty statements without explanation or simply do not respond whasoever. In any case, Baptists deny the infilling of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and prophecies. Therefore, if they deny parts of scripture, then you can easily deny anything I present regarding biblical scripture.

arunma said:

The fact that God commanded the constructed the Ark of the Covenant, adorned with the cherubim, should be evidence to you that this does not constitute the construction of idols.

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So did the ark and cherubum have divine power? Hindus will say they same thing about their idols. Ok fine, I will spell out scripture for you if it is that difficult:

Deut 10:8 says, "At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister and to pronounce blessings in his name, as they still do today."

Invoking blessings to a material object is considered an idol.

Duet 31:26, "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

A material object that witnesses without eyes and hears is considered an idol.

Joshua 3:3, "giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests, who are Levites, carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it."

Despite God being omnipresent, they were required to follow a material object which is an idol.

I Sam 4:5 says, "When the ark of the LORD's covenant came into the camp, all Israel raised such a great shout that the ground shook."

If they shouted only when they saw a material object, then this is an idol.

I Kings 3:15, "Then Solomon awoke—and he realized it had been a dream. He returned to Jerusalem, stood before the ark of the Lord's covenant and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then he gave a feast for all his court."

Sacrificing to a material object is considered an idol.

I Chron 28:2, "King David rose to his feet and said: "Listen to me, my brothers and my people. I had it in my heart to build a house as a place of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, for the footstool of our God, and I made plans to build it."

Now if David referred to a material object as God's footrest, then it is an idol, not God Himself.

Jeremiah 3:6, "In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made."

The ark was not worth mentioing anymore because it was simply a materialistic idol.

arunma said:

Doctrines of Maya and Prakriti are false doctrines of Hinduism.

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And where does it say in Hinduism maya is a false doctrine?

arunma said:

They don't find any support in the Bible. Again, I would challenge you to support your claim with Scripture.

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It is common sense. Materialism is maya. It is an illusion produced by the brain. For instance, what about people who are color blind? Are they correct when they see blue flowers while people with normal vision see red flowers? Which is the real color of the flower, red or blue? There is no real color because they are both considered maya. The same applies to idol worshipping. God said idols are not real:

Jeremiah 10:5 says, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."

I understand you are anti-Hindu, but why do you sacrifice your common sense. If I say idols are maya, you will not agree, but if I say idols are an illusion, then you will agree.

arunma said:

No, I am not.

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Thank you brother, for you walked right into my point. If God told Moses to not construct any graven images, but except in the instances of the ark, cherubim, and the bronze serpent, then this is a contradiction.

arunma said:

Even apart from the fact that other Hindu scriptures condone idolatry, your quoting of Hindu scripture is meaningless.

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So wise guy, why don't you cite Hindu scripture that supports your claim that Hindus are commanded to worship idols?

arunma said:

You seem to be interpreting this false religion from a pseudochristian mindset.

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So if I cite Hindu scripture that claims man has a soul and compare this to Christianity, are you telling me I am speaking a false doctrine from a pseudochristian mindset? Again, this is all common sense.

arunma said:

Yes, I would condemn any religion that denies the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

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And if you had the chance, you would enjoy seeing people being burn in hell. However, that is not Christlike.

arunma said:

And yes, I deny the notion of a univeralist god.

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So if your god did not create the universe, then you believe in a false god. It is as simple as that.

arunma said:

The problem here is that your questions are frivolous, and are based on logically inconsistent conclusions from various religious scriptures.

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But there is an answer for everything, and you still cannot answer questions regarding the following issues:

1. non-jews fate before the gospels

2. native indians fate before 1492

3. God's Word stays in Israel while the devil roams throughout the earth terrorizing non-Jews

4. no point of having judgement day for non-Christians

5. the Zoarastrian Magi visited Jesus's birth

6. God dispensing justice to all mankind before the gospels

7. people born in non-Christian families

The above list is issues you ignore, and obviously cannot answer. Therefore, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously? All you do us bark partisan beliefs. Anybody can do that.

arunma said:

Christianity has not been your only victim. Indeed you've angered Hindus as well with your revisionist views of religion.

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And why should you care if I angered Hindus? If anything you were definitely enjoying it. The difference though between you and Hindus is that I can have a constructive dialogue with Hindus, not you. They respect and are open to Christianity. In any case, I have asked them to cite scripture regarding idol worship, and so far not one of them has.

arunma said:

In general, religion is not a science: original thought is not encouraged.

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You are right, but I do not use science to prove my points. All you need is common sense and infilling of the Spirit.

arunma said:

Most religions operate under the assumption that some god has revealed his will to humanity, and when you invent original ideas, you effectively usurp the god's role as revelator.

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You are speaking lies. I only quote scripture to prove my points that religions co-exist with each other. God said so Himself:

Psalm 19:1-4 says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. [a]Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun”.

Psalm 46:9 says, “He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth; he breaks the bow and shatters the spear, he burns the shields [a] with fire.

Psalm 22:27 says, “All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him.

Psalm 98:3 says, “He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Psalm 147:15 says, “He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly.

Malachi 1:5 says, "You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'"

arunma said:

n the end, you've constructed a theology which is acceptable neither to Christians nor to Hindu idolators.

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Well brother you are the only one saying this now. So far, not one Hindu has said anything like that to me in this thread. Speak for yourself, not them.

Thank you and God bless.

arunma said:

I believe that evil is defined by God and not man. Modern secular culture, as well as Hinduism, has a far stranger definition of evil than mine, since these philosophies permit individuals to define evil for themselves. The God of the church, however, has declared all idolatry to be evil. Because Hinduism is an idolatrous religion, God regards it as evil.

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My dear friend, Hinduism does not support idolatry. Your claim is either a lie or just plain ignorance. For instance, my temple in Uttarkhand does not have an idols nor pictures of God. Since Brahma is both form and formless, we cannot determine His absolute image. In addition, according to our ancient manuscripts that we have preserved from generation to generation, we have no record of idol worship. Sarva Mangalam.

sarvak said:

My dear friend, Hinduism does not support idolatry. Your claim is either a lie or just plain ignorance. For instance, my temple in Uttarkhand does not have an idols nor pictures of God. Since Brahma is both form and formless, we cannot determine His absolute image. In addition, according to our ancient manuscripts that we have preserved from generation to generation, we have no record of idol worship. Sarva Mangalam.

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Arunma defines idolatry as being the worship of any other God then the Christian trinity. So, in his eyes statue or no statue Hindus commit idolatry.

baobobtree said:

Arunma defines idolatry as being the worship of any other God then the Christian trinity. So, in his eyes statue or no statue Hindus commit idolatry.

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Anyone ever been in a catholic church?

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the year of the good-pleasure of YHWH, And the day of Vengeance of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Acts 13:29 and when they did complete all the things written about Him, having taken [him] down from the tree, they laid Him in a tomb;

czach8 said:

Deut 10:8 says, "At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister and to pronounce blessings in his name, as they still do today."

Invoking blessings to a material object is considered an idol.

Duet 31:26, "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

A material object that witnesses without eyes and hears is considered an idol.

Joshua 3:3, "giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests, who are Levites, carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it."

Despite God being omnipresent, they were required to follow a material object which is an idol.

I Sam 4:5 says, "When the ark of the LORD's covenant came into the camp, all Israel raised such a great shout that the ground shook."

If they shouted only when they saw a material object, then this is an idol.

I Kings 3:15, "Then Solomon awoke—and he realized it had been a dream. He returned to Jerusalem, stood before the ark of the Lord's covenant and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then he gave a feast for all his court."

Sacrificing to a material object is considered an idol.

I Chron 28:2, "King David rose to his feet and said: "Listen to me, my brothers and my people. I had it in my heart to build a house as a place of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, for the footstool of our God, and I made plans to build it."

Now if David referred to a material object as God's footrest, then it is an idol, not God Himself.

Jeremiah 3:6, "In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made."

The ark was not worth mentioing anymore because it was simply a materialistic idol.

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Are you sure the ark of the covenant was a material object? I was told by Christians it was a book or in other words the law given to Moses.

czach8 said:

And where does it say in Hinduism maya is a false doctrine?

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Maya has nothing to do with doctrine. It is a state of mind. Pschology professors claim shizophrenics are not really seeing delusions, but it is actually another form of maya.

czach8 said:

Thank you brother, for you walked right into my point. If God told Moses to not construct any graven images, but except in the instances of the ark, cherubim, and the bronze serpent, then this is a contradiction.

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Yes I agree it is a contradiction, but then the question we have to ask is what is the spiritual significance of the ark? Why has no one addressed this if there is any spiritual significance?

czach8 said:

1. non-jews fate before the gospels

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The Scripture of God must be dispensed before being judged. Therefore, it is impossible for only the Jews to receive God's guidance. For instance, say if a Hindu faces God in the afterlife, and is told he will enter hell because he never believed in the bible. The Hindu will then say, "well You never gave me the bible in the first place". This seems unlikely that God would act in such an unfair manner.

czach8 said:

2. native indians fate before 1492

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Same answer as in #1.

czach8 said:

3. God's Word stays in Israel while the devil roams throughout the earth terrorizing non-Jews

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Same answer as #1

czach8 said:

4. no point of having judgement day for non-Christians

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Same answer as #1

czach8 said:

5. the Zoarastrian Magi visited Jesus's birth

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Zoarastrians also make scriptural connotations to the Aryans. They were noble in God's eyes, so that is why God sent them to see Jesus.

czach8 said:

6. God dispensing justice to all mankind before the gospels

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Same answer as # 1.

czach8 said:

7. people born in non-Christian families

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All religions are equal, so there is no problem being born in a Muslim, Hindu, or Christian family. What would you say though, if one is born in an atheist family? Is this fair?

czach8 said:

Psalm 19:1-4 says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. [a]Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun”.

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czach8 said:

Psalm 46:9 says, “He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth; he breaks the bow and shatters the spear, he burns the shields [a] with fire.

Psalm 22:27 says, “All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him.

Psalm 98:3 says, “He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Psalm 147:15 says, “He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly.

Malachi 1:5 says, "You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'"

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Interesting bible verses. Can you give me more explanation of what these verses are saying?

Sarva Mangalam

baobobtree said:

Arunma defines idolatry as being the worship of any other God then the Christian trinity. So, in his eyes statue or no statue Hindus commit idolatry.

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Namaste. From what it looks like, it seems he is only referring to material objects. However, that has nothing to do with the Universal God. Doesn't arunma believe in the same god or is his version of god only inclusive to a certain group of people? I may be from an Indian culture, but I am still human.

Sarva Mangalam.

sarvak said:

Are you sure the ark of the covenant was a material object? I was told by Christians it was a book or in other words the law given to Moses.

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Yes this is true. It was God's Word, but it was treated as an idol in the sense it's physical aspect had power. The ark was used by the Jews during war, and because of this ark, they would win the win. However, it was the power of God Himself in all essence that led the Jews to win wars, not the physical essence of the book. Brother Arunma does not even have the biblical knowledge to explain this much.

sarvak said:

Maya has nothing to do with doctrine. It is a state of mind. Pschology professors claim shizophrenics are not really seeing delusions, but it is actually another form of maya.

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Agreed.

sarvak said:

Yes I agree it is a contradiction, but then the question we have to ask is what is the spiritual significance of the ark? Why has no one addressed this if there is any spiritual significance?

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There was really no spirtual significance of the ark because the power of God was the essence. To a certain degree, the ark was considered maya. I mean it is not as if we need the ark today to spiritually move foward in our life. You understand what I mean brother?

Peace.

sarvak said:

The Scripture of God must be dispensed before being judged. Therefore, it is impossible for only the Jews to receive God's guidance. For instance, say if a Hindu faces God in the afterlife, and is told he will enter hell because he never believed in the bible. The Hindu will then say, "well You never gave me the bible in the first place". This seems unlikely that God would act in such an unfair manner.

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Agreed. It is too bad narrow-minded people cannot see this.

sarvak said:

Zoarastrians also make scriptural connotations to the Aryans. They were noble in God's eyes, so that is why God sent them to see Jesus.

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Can you cite Zoarastrian proof that supports your claim?

sarvak said:

All religions are equal, so there is no problem being born in a Muslim, Hindu, or Christian family. What would you say though, if one is born in an atheist family? Is this fair?

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Well this is ineviatble, but if the Word of God is written in our hearts and souls, then an atheist has a chance if pursues God within. Therefore, an atheist is born with God already in him. For instance:

Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"

sarvak said:

Interesting bible verses. Can you give me more explanation of what these verses are saying?

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In a nutshell God is saying the following:

1. God is omnipresent

2. God is omnificent

3. God is omnipotent

4. God is omniscient

5. God's Word is pervasive outside of Israel.

6. God plays a role in all religions.

God bless you brother.

czach8 said:

Yes this is true. It was God's Word, but it was treated as an idol in the sense it's physical aspect had power. The ark was used by the Jews during war, and because of this ark, they would win the win. However, it was the power of God Himself in all essence that led the Jews to win wars, not the physical essence of the book. Brother Arunma does not even have the biblical knowledge to explain this much.

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Most likely arunma lacks knowledge of the bible. Give him time, and maybe he will see a better light of what his religion teaches. I embrace Christianity, and I can see maybe this is the correct path that God has led him to. We have to respect that.

czach8 said:

There was really no spirtual significance of the ark because the power of God was the essence. To a certain degree, the ark was considered maya. I mean it is not as if we need the ark today to spiritually move foward in our life. You understand what I mean brother?

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czach8 said:

Peace.

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You are quite right. I don't believe in relics or things of that sort.

Sarva Mangalam

czach8 said:

Agreed. It is too bad narrow-minded people cannot see this.

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Have patience my dear friend, and we must always be gentle with such people.

czach8 said:

Can you cite Zoarastrian proof that supports your claim?

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I have to research the Avestan online since I do not have my book with me. In the meantime, take a look at this website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

czach8 said:

Well this is ineviatble, but if the Word of God is written in our hearts and souls, then an atheist has a chance if pursues God within. Therefore, an atheist is born with God already in him. For instance:

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czach8 said:

Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"

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This biblical verse always reminds me that God is universal and above any religion because man was indeed fashioned to be His child. No one can take such a privelege away from us.

Sarva Mangalam.

sarvak said:

Have patience my dear friend, and we must always be gentle with such people.

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You are right brother. Only time will tell.

sarvak said:

I have to research the Avestan online since I do not have my book with me. In the meantime, take a look at this website:

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sarvak said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan
[/quote]

Take your time bro.

sarvak said:

This biblical verse always reminds me that God is universal and above any religion because man was indeed fashioned to be His child. No one can take such a privelege away from us.

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Exactly. God bless.

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