what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

LoAmmi said:

Using Young's Literal Translation of Isaiah 9 I get:
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Even though it is still being rendered to say that HaShem calls him all these titles, which I have been told can work either way in Hebrew, the beginning is clear: it is past tense.

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Ok, but what individual is so prominent at this time as to receive all this? See, it doesn't make sense. It points to Prophecy.

razeontherock said:

Or was it entirely foreign to him?

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I'm sure you can figure out my answer to your question here.

razeontherock said:

Ok, but what individual is so prominent at this time as to receive all this? See, it doesn't make sense. It points to Prophecy.

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Read the way it is translated in the version I presented.

The ONLY title conveyed to this person is "prince of peace". The rest are titles for HaShem. Like "HaShem, the Holy One of Israel, Ruler of the Universe called him Billy".

Billy is not the Holy One of Israel or Ruler of the Universe.

LoAmmi said:

I'm sure you can figure out my answer to your question here.

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Right, but it does speak to the doubt we are all plagued by. Sometimes we may see clearly, but by the time we get the chance to put that into action, some element is foreign. And this is why keeping Torah is so precious to you; you have an entire society, encouraging you to keep those ways, even when you do not clearly see why. So that you are found faithful, at those times when it is clear.

Am I wrong?

razeontherock said:

Am I wrong?

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I'm fairly convinced that nothing would happen to me if I did not keep it. I keep the Torah, to the best of my ability, because it allows me to feel that I bring the divine into my daily life. I may not have much in the way of a connection to mysticism, but when I perform the mitzvot I feel good about what I am doing. I know it is right to do.

Here I am told that it is the Law of Death. But the Torah says that it is the path of life, and not following it is the path of death.

LoAmmi said:

Do you know Biblical Hebrew? If you are merely quoting the English translation, I'm afraid you will need to do better than that. Those whom I know that do know Biblical Hebrew have assured me that it is past tense in grammar, as the translation I posted showed. Also, it is saying that HaShem shall call this person the "prince of peace", listing multiple titles for HaShem. I have also been assured this is a proper rending of the Hebrew.

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Here is from a Jewish-English translation:

Isaiah 9
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us;
dominion will rest on his shoulders,
and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor
Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,
Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 in order to extend the dominion
and perpetuate the peace
of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it
through justice and righteousness
henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot
will accomplish this.

If this refers to that king, it does not square with what actually happened:

2 Kings 20
16 And Isaiah said unto Hezekiah, Hear the word of the Lord.
17 Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store unto this day, shall be carried into Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the Lord.
18 And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.
19 Then said Hezekiah unto Isaiah, Good is the word of the Lord which thou hast spoken. And he said, Is it not good, if peace and truth be in my days?
20 And the rest of the acts of Hezekiah, and all his might, and how he made a pool, and a conduit, and brought water into the city, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
21 And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

For one called "The Mighty God," it does not sound like he had walked as well as David. In that time, Israel also suffered many horrors. The Kingdom did not extend. It diminished, and his life was ended with the dread prophecy of exile into Babylon. He also was not a child when that scripture was written, and the promises of everlasting peace are things strictly limited to the Messiah Himself, not to this King.


Eze 37:21-25 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Enkil said:

Here is from a Jewish-English translation:

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That's a Messianic translation.

There are places where it says it is about the messiah. That's fine. However, it still holds that the person being named is not given all those title, but simply being given prince of peace since world peace IS a hallmark of the messiah. One of the biggest actually.

So, the passage says that messiah will bring peace if read that way. No surprise there. Doesn't help Jesus.

Care to explain the past tense however? Was that a mistake on Isiah's part?

LoAmmi said:

I'm fairly convinced that nothing would happen to me if I did not keep it. I keep the Torah, to the best of my ability, because it allows me to feel that I bring the divine into my daily life. I may not have much in the way of a connection to mysticism, but when I perform the mitzvot I feel good about what I am doing. I know it is right to do.

Here I am told that it is the Law of Death. But the Torah says that it is the path of life, and not following it is the path of death.

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So wait, your opening line is nothing would happen if you didn't keep it. But your closing line is that not following it is the law of death?

I really am not trying to convince you of anything, this just seems puzzling to me. I'm glad you get a sense of goodness out of keeping it!

I don't mean to harass you ...

LoAmmi said:

So, the passage says that messiah will bring peace if read that way. No surprise there. Doesn't help Jesus.

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I would say Jesus DOES bring Peace! Just like He IS called (or known by) Emmanuel - God with us.

LoAmmi said:

Care to explain the past tense however? Was that a mistake on Isiah's part?

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This is something consistent throughout Isaiah; the tenses aren't consistent. There's something like that in the Passover, that everyone partaking is at the same moment in time?

I see it as G-d's vantage point, and He sees it as a done deal. "By His stripes ye were healed"

There is actually a third thing I have not brought up.

Those could simply be names and not titles. Hebrew names tend to contain references to HaShem. Immanuel was a name historically, for example. Elihu means "My God is He" and is a name in the Tanakh. Is Elihu HaShem?

razeontherock said:

So wait, your opening line is nothing would happen if you didn't keep it. But your closing line is that not following it is the law of death?

I really am not trying to convince you of anything, this just seems puzzling to me. I'm glad you get a sense of goodness out of keeping it!

I don't mean to harass you ...

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Nothing would happen to me in that I would not be put into a lake of fire forever were I to stop following.

If I did stop, however, I would be cut off from the people and, I assume, from HaShem. I did not explain myself well, but it is growing late and my mind tends to wander a bit when I become tired.

razeontherock said:

I would say Jesus DOES bring Peace! Just like He IS called (or known by) Emmanuel - God with us.

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Well, world peace hasn't happened yet.

This is something consistent throughout Isaiah; the tenses aren't consistent. There's something like that in the Passover, that everyone partaking is at the same moment in time?

I see it as G-d's vantage point, and He sees it as a done deal. "By His stripes ye were healed"

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It is an interesting idea. One worth considering. I don't think this really helps either way though.

I must go to bed now. This is taxing on me so... I'm not sure if I will be continuing right away.

I understand that people are seeing this and going "He's clinging to his faith and can't see the truth!" Well, remember that you are clinging to your faith as well. We are both in the same boat, both convinced we are correct. None of the verses put forth will ever be definitive. There are always interpretations for these things.

LoAmmi said:

That's a Messianic translation.

There are places where it says it is about the messiah. That's fine. However, it still holds that the person being named is not given all those title, but simply being given prince of peace since world peace IS a hallmark of the messiah. One of the biggest actually.

So, the passage says that messiah will bring peace if read that way. No surprise there. Doesn't help Jesus.

Care to explain the past tense however? Was that a mistake on Isiah's part?

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Here is Isaiah 9 from the 1917 Jewish translation, from a Jewish publication:

5For a child is born unto us,
A son is given unto us;
And the government is upon his shoulder;
And his name is called
aPele-joez-el-gibbor-
Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6That the government may be increased, And of peace there be no end,
Upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
To establish it, and to uphold it
Through justice and through righteousness From henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.

The Jewish Publication Society: THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, Tanakh 1917 edition

He was already well into adulthood when this scripture was written; nor did he fulfill it at all.

Here is the Chaldee Paraphrase, written 30 years before Christ's birth, translated into English, albeit by a Christian writer, but the text used was that of the paraphrase:

The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law uponb Himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, the Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and to those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of Hosts this shall be done.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_b...ee+paraphrase+Isaiah#v=snippet&q=lamb&f=false

Interestingly, Johnathan Ben Uziel paraphrases Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. He predated the Messiah.

Enkil said:

Soon there may be a world war, and it will only be because America is the ally of Israel, which the communists over many years have painted as a great Satan in order to unite the Middle East against our interests.

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As the resident Middle East historian here, I have to say, "Boy are you confused!" The notion of the United States as the Great Satan did not come from the communists it was originally coined by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979. I've never heard an Arab use that term.

LoAmmi said:

Nothing would happen to me in that I would not be put into a lake of fire forever were I to stop following.

If I did stop, however, I would be cut off from the people and, I assume, from HaShem. I did not explain myself well, but it is growing late and my mind tends to wander a bit when I become tired.

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Ok, so "being put into a lake of fire" and being cut off from both God and His people are different how?

LoAmmi said:

Well, world peace hasn't happened yet.

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True! But Peace with G-d is available, world wide. This is the greatest reason for coexistence of Judaism and Christianity; both have their truth.

LoAmmi said:

I understand that people are seeing this and going "He's clinging to his faith and can't see the truth!"

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I would actually say the opposite, that clinging to your faith IS seeing truth!

Hold fast

smaneck said:

As the resident Middle East historian here, I have to say, "Boy are you confused!" The notion of the United States as the Great Satan did not come from the communists it was originally coined by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979. I've never heard an Arab use that term.

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The KGB's involvement amongst the Muslims in anti-American and anti-Jewish propaganda is no secret. Many of the world's greatest terrorists and Muslim leaders were first trained by the KGB, or at least recruited or funded by them. But this is not the thread to teach on cold war history.

We need some comments from a professional Russian, but youtube's FPSRussia is not to be linked ...