What makes the elect sons ?

heymikey80 · Jan 25, 2008

grtcr said:
It is this information I am seeking to gather from you, which accounts for why I’m engaging you. In other words, I’m not so shallow as to merely try to “win a debate,” or play “one-upsmanship.” I don’t have time, it being God’s time to be wisely redeemed, to play these kinds of mind games.

To what do you attribute your ability to post multiple-response postings of remarkable length -- given that you don't have time?

grtcr · Jan 25, 2008

heymikey80 said:
To what do you attribute your ability to post multiple-response postings of remarkable length -- given that you don't have time?

As stated...no time to play mind games. I just tend to be direct, no nonsense in my approach to speaking and writing, since I try to live in unswerving obedience to the biblical command to "redeem the time;" and in redeeming the time, which God's time allotted us is irretrievable and ever perishing amounts and not ours to do with as we please, I don't believe any serious Christian has the time, much less the permission to beat bushes, dance dances, but should get right to the point when either speaking or writing, especially on matters of eternal import.

Does this answer suffice you, no?

Van · Jan 25, 2008

Returning to topic, when God places those whose faith He has credited as righteousness spiritually in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation born again as a child of God. As a born again child of God they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and to be bodily resurrected in a glorified body unto eternal life.

heymikey80 · Jan 26, 2008

grtcr said:
As stated...no time to play mind games. I just tend to be direct, no nonsense in my approach to speaking and writing, since I try to live in unswerving obedience to the biblical command to "redeem the time;" and in redeeming the time, which God's time allotted us is irretrievable and ever perishing amounts and not ours to do with as we please, I don't believe any serious Christian has the time, much less the permission to beat bushes, dance dances, but should get right to the point when either speaking or writing, especially on matters of eternal import.

Does this answer suffice you, no?

Not really. The sheer volume of words doesn't get to any point I'm aware of, and it appears Van also thinks the subject has strayed from "right to the point".

Van, I would say that what makes the elect sons, is the Father. The whole imagery of sonship revolves around fatherhood as well.

grtcr · Jan 28, 2008

I beg to differ. The SHEER volume of words got directly to the point and quite beyond Van's false gospel. Had he confessed the Gospel (which he didn't) he would have known that "faith it'self" is excluded as any "part" of the entitlement for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8

Faith is the instrumental "means" whereby we "receive" Christ's righteousness as our entitlement. Van didn't confess this and neither have you.

Van · Jan 28, 2008

Since salvation has no "entitlement" part, it is grtcr that invents unbiblical positions, then ascribes them to others.

The he repeats, by inference, that faith is a gift of God, when of course the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation. Why not present contextual truth? Because no scripture supports the views espoused by grtcr, such as if a person puts their faith in Christ, that somehow entitles a person to salvation. LOL, scripture says salvation is a gift.

grtcr · Jan 28, 2008

Van said:
Since salvation has no "entitlement" part, it is grtcr that invents unbiblical positions, then ascribes them to others.

The he repeats, by inference, that faith is a gift of God, when of course the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation. Why not present contextual truth? Because no scripture supports the views espoused by grtcr, such as if a person puts their faith in Christ, that somehow entitles a person to salvation. LOL, scripture says salvation is a gift.

Lets first do some teaching in whose light by contrast well be better able to see one source of our opponents error in denying the entitlement" of salvation. Lets lay a foundation for rightly understanding our doctrine of the "entitlement" of salvation by first discussing the particulars of the nature of the Godhead.

God, the Father, is the source and originator of all of salvation, and His everlasting love is, not an entitling condition, but the only moving cause of salvation. God, the Father, elected a certain number of guilty, defiled, ungodly sinners to be saved, not choosing them originally as fallen (or as sinners), but as those who would fall in Adam in time. God elected them before time, and as considered yet uncreated, hence unfallen (the supralapsarian view). God elected them before time, because God, by decree, made Adams Fall sure and certain to happen in time. So God, the Father, planned the Fall, whereby His elect, in their own persons, and in time, and in each successive generation, and to the Fathers redemptive glory and His Sons mediatorial glory, would become subject to Gods hatred towards, wrath against, and curse upon them for sin. This is so because all the race by nature, yes, even the elect, are born in time, and in their own state, children of wrath, and children of disobedience; and, as considered in their own persons, are every bit on their way to hell as the non-elect: so Paul said, even as others.

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But the Father is neither the Son, nor the Spirit; and the Son is neither the Father, nor the Spirit; and the Spirit is neither the Father, nor the Son. The Godhead subsists in three co-equal, co-glorious, co-eternal, yet immutably distinct Persons: each having distinct offices, and distinct works, none of which to be confounded.

The Fathers work of election, while being the beginning of all of salvation, yet has no part in, or is no basis of, satisfying Law and Justice for the elect; and so is no possible ground of entitlement to salvation. The Spirits work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification in the elect, while necessary for the application of the redemptive blessings of salvation, yet has no part in, or is no basis of, satisfying Law and Justice; and so, too, is no possible ground of entitlement to salvation. God, the Father, assigned the work of establishing a perfect righteousness and holiness in behalf of the elect, which in and of itself entitles them (a doctrine Van denies) to the whole inheritance of grace, and all of salvation, specifically and exclusively to the Son, not any part to Himself, nor the Spirit.

The benefits of this glorious work, entitling the elect to all of salvation (a doctrine Van denies), are to be communicated to all their persons, in time, in each successive generation, and received by God-given faith, faith being accompanied by godly repentance. This is in perfect accord with the command of the Gospel: The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel (Mk. 1:15). This is what makes the Elect sons...that's right!

Rick Otto · Jan 28, 2008

heymikey80 said:
Not really. The sheer volume of words doesn't get to any point I'm aware of, and it appears Van also thinks the subject has strayed from "right to the point".

Van, I would say that what makes the elect sons, is the Father. The whole imagery of sonship revolves around fatherhood as well.

Hi, Mike.
I didn't read all of grtc's comments but at a glance I can see he's slam dunkin':

You have revealed that you believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner:
"But to him that worketh not [that have no conditions to meet in order to attain or maintain any part of salvation, nothing to contribute to the finished work of Christ], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for ['to the receiving of'] righteousness."

Van talks about "forgiveness." Upon what basis does God forgive my sins? Does forgiveness come at the cost of my repentance? Does God forgive me simply because I am sorry, or because I ask Him to forgive me? NO! My repentance is not satisfaction to God's Law. Nothing I do, hope to do, or may be enabled to do satisfies God's law. Forgiveness comes at the cost of the precious blood of Christ!

I wore out on Van a long time ago, but i congratulate beloved & grtc for standin' up to his nonsense.

beloved57 · Jan 28, 2008

grtcr

So God, the Father, planned the Fall, whereby His elect, in their own persons, and in time, and in each successive generation, and to the Father’s redemptive glory and His Son’s mediatorial glory, would become subject to God’s hatred towards, wrath against, and curse upon them for sin.

This is a lie God has never ever hated the elect, this is a false gospel, you and van are really the same , there is really no difference in both of your false understanding of salvation..

Van · Jan 28, 2008

More wasted verbiage from Grtcr, off topic and non-germane. Then he shifts the discussion from us doing something that entitles us to salvation, a doctrine I deny, to God doing spiritual operations which provide our salvation, a doctrine I support.

Repenting and putting our trust fully in Christ does not make us sons of God, we do not make ourselves sons of God. It is God who puts us spiritually "in Christ" where by the will of God we are born again from above as spiritual children of God.

Finally, there is no support whatsoever in scripture for a presalvation gift of faith, the result of irresistible grace. Salvation is a gift, a grace of God, for we are saved by grace through faith. Our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:2.

Van · Jan 28, 2008

One thing Calvinist's do is attack others personally, even other Calvinists or those who share some views held by other Calvinists.
Thus beloved says Grtcr does not understand the gospel.

Note the paradox of Calvinism, Beloved claims the elect were "in Christ" before time and therefore were never the object of wrath. Grtcr claims God chose the elect before time, yet they were the object of His wrath. Neither view, of course, is scriptural. No one was spiritually in Christ before time, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and no individual that is one of the elect is the object of God's wrath, Romans 8:33. Taken together, scripture precludes individual election before we physically live without mercy, hence an object of wrath, and once we are chosen during our lifetime, we are justified and hence not a child of wrath. Scripture is crystal for those willing to accept it.

Rick Otto · Jan 28, 2008

No one was spiritually in Christ before time,

That much is true only because no one existed before time.
Eph 1:4 puts the elect in Christ before the "foundation of the world" (creation) in God's determinate council, the plan of creation, not in physicaly created fact.

beloved57 · Jan 28, 2008

Quote:
No one was spiritually in Christ before time,

To say this is to deny that christ existed before time..

which is a contradiction to 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

jn 17:

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If christ exsisted before time then so did his body..

Van · Jan 28, 2008

Give me a break, saying no one was spiritually in Christ before time does not say Christ did not exist or was not chosen before time. Folks, Calvinism cannot be supported scripturally, so one illogical assertion after another is made to cloud that truth.

The scriptural truth is Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God, to be God's Redeemer before time. Thus whoever is redeemed receives the grace granted before time, 2 Timothy 1:9.

No one, not one foreseen individual was chosen or spiritually placed in Christ before creation, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Everyone that is chosen first lived without mercy, and then is chosen after having lived without mercy.

Ephesians does not read, "He chose us individually to be in Him before the foundation of the world" and such an interpretation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. Rather, scripture says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" which means God chose Christ to be His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, and therefore everyone who is redeemed shares in His election, thus He chose us (those who have been redeemed during our physical lives) in Him because He chose Him to redeem believers. This is the only interpretation that is consistent with 1 Peter 2:9-10.

beloved57 · Jan 29, 2008

van says

Give me a break, saying no one was spiritually in Christ before time does not say Christ did not exist

christ and his people are one..

heb 2

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Jesus says:

jn 8 23

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

jn 17:

14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Of course these are mysteries only the elect will be given to understand and rejoice in..

Rick Otto · Jan 29, 2008

Yeah, but Van's right that we didn't exist yet, not even spiritualy. That part had to wait for creation.
Still, the fact that we existed as God's idea of us, and that His plan of placing us in Christ is right there in Eph 1:4, absitively, posolutely, no bout a doubt it.

beloved57 · Jan 29, 2008

rick says

Yeah, but Van's right that we didn't exist yet, not even spiritualy

I disagree the bible teaches that God recognizes exisistence before we exisit naturally..i.e

heb 7:

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Levi is said to have payed tithes in abraham because he was yet in his[abrahams] loins as seed. For abraham was His great grandfater , jacob was levi father .

God looked and calculated levi the seed of abraham as exisiting to the point it is said by the holy spirit that levi payed tithes in abraham to melchezidec..

The elect have always been the seed spirtual seed of christ in his loins..Just like when adam was created eve was in him , in fact when God gave adam the command not to eat of the tree of the garden eve was yet in adam but she recieved the command as well as he because he was her federal head..

gen 2:

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

I am sorry if you like van dont believe the elect exisisted spiritually in their head its obivously a truth God has not revealed to neither of you .. but if you are truly his elect you will understand later but if not then you are reprobated.. The death of christ for his people is only rightly understood, if its realized that they were in him when he died and rose again..

and that His plan of placing us in Christ is right there in Eph 1:4, absitively, posolutely, no bout a doubt it.

You err in this also , there was no plan to put the elect in christ the elect were in christ..

eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

again you are denying that christ exisited before time began or before the world began and thats heresy.. Jesus christ has always exisited..

heb 13:

5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The elect his body has always exisited along with him..to deny the elect exsisited before the world began you deny Jesus christ exisited before the world began and then you fall into serious blasphemey..

Van · Jan 29, 2008

Give me a break squared. Yes Christ and the elect are one. The issue is when did God elect us individually and place us in Christ such that we are one with Christ?

As as been demonstrated before, since no charge can be brought by God against God's elect, for He is the one who justifies, then the elect cannot be condemned. However, all the elect were condemned before they became elect. It is a lock. The Calvinist view is unbiblical.
Ephesians does not read, "He chose us individually to be in Him before the foundation of the world" and such an interpretation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. Rather, scripture says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" which means God chose Christ to be His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, and therefore everyone who is redeemed shares in His election, thus He chose us (those who have been redeemed during our physical lives) in Him because He chose Him to redeem believers. This is the only interpretation that is consistent with 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Rick Otto · Jan 29, 2008

quote=beloved57;9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

This is after creation, as I said

I am sorry if you like van dont believe the elect exisisted spiritually in their head its obivously a truth God has not revealed to neither of you .. but if you are truly his elect you will understand later but if not then you are reprobated.. The death of christ for his people is only rightly understood, if its realized that they were in him when he died and rose again..

Oh, that's ok, you needn't be sorry, I'm fine, realy.

You err in this also , there was no plan to put the elect in christ the elect were in christ..

If God didn't intend/plan to put us there, how did we get there? A divine spastic accident?

eph 1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
again you are denying that christ exisited before time began or before the world began and thats heresy.. Jesus christ has always exisited..

Now I'M sorry you're not apprehending what I've said. I never said Jesus did not exist, I said that before creation our existance was as an idea in the plan for creation that God formed. Would you have me believe God acts without pre-meditation? THAT is heresy, and not paying attention to what I'm saying is counter productive...oh no, wait,... I see you are saying that we are eternal beings like God. God didn't create us because we always existed.
I have never heard that one before. You get props for originality.

The elect his body has always exisited along with him..to deny the elect exsisited before the world began you deny Jesus christ exisited before the world began and then you fall into serious blasphemey..

You have fallen into a false equation & to accuse me of blasphemy makes you an accuser of the brethren... realy tho, can we discuss this without all the condemnation?
How you can grant created beings an eternal pre-existance is beyond explainable.

beloved57 · Jan 29, 2008

otto says

Now I'M sorry you're not apprehending what I've said. I never said Jesus did not exist

Click to expand...

If jesus exsisted then his seed exsisted thats my point, God views the seed as in exsistence of the Father that is the point of the levi Illustration..

Jesus Christ has always had a body that exisited the elect are his body..

What makes the elect sons ?

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