what makes one better than the other?

The promise of brownies in the afterlife. yummmmmmmmm...brownies.

Ok...I'm pmsing and it's late. I promise a more serious thought by the end of the weekend. I want to address this because I considered myself agnostic for a number(majority of adult life) years and this was a nagging question I had. I attended a skeptics class at a methodist church(close friend is a methodist pastor and swore it wasn't a ploy to convert me but an attempt at honest dialogue...she was right..but it planted seeds none the less). One thing was said that I couldn't shake...to quote Dylan, You gotta serve somebody. I began honest reflection of who or what I was serving...and which someone or something was better than others when it came to serving. And that, my brother, was the demise of my agnosticism. So I do want to seriously respond to your question but I'm yawning and I have an early appointment to get my ears lowered and my roots touched up.

iAtheist said:

II am asking what makes the bible more true than the rest of the religious scriptures still followed today?

Click to expand...

Nothing - it more depends on environmental factors like in which country you are born. If I was born in Iran I would be more likely a Muslim.

iAtheist said:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes... I want to start off by saying that I'm not here to deconvert anybody, insult anybodys religious beliefs, or imply disrespect. So my question is, what makes the god of the Christian bible anymore significant/real than the rest of the gods still worshipped today? Jews claim that the Torah is proof of the same god that Christians believe in yet is quite different on the important aspects. Muslims believe Allah is the true god and say that the Qur'an is proof of such. The Hindus have various scriptures that they provide as proof of their god, Lord Krishna, including the Bhagvadgita, the 5 Vedas, the Ramayana and more. Taoists also have various scriptures to prove their various gods including Tao Te Ching, Zhuangzi and, Daozang. So to reiterate, I am asking what makes the bible more true than the rest of the religious scriptures still followed today?

Click to expand...

Ten people testify in a murder trial and each one of them have a completely different testimony, and each one contradicts the others, who is right? The one telling the truth of course.

Or

one persons says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
another person says 1 + 1 + 1 is a meaningless statement,
another person says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 x 1 x 1
another person says 1 + 1 + 1 = infinity
another person says 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

so who is right? everybody?

truth is truth it isn't a variable depending on the individual. Either God spoke through the OT and NT prophets or he spoke through buddah, or hare krishna, or rev. moon, or whoever But God didn't speak though all of them and contradict himself like we humans often do.
Nobody is going to have a good excuse as to why they rejected JEsus as their savior on judgement day, although it obviously seems so to multitudes today. If one rejects the leading of the holy spirit, which is the only way one can accept JEsus as their savior, then god blinds their eyes so that they will believe any one of the nuemerous counterfiet lies that are out there and feel justified in their own hearts in b elieving them. Hey Nazi's feel totally justified in their own minds for Hitler did.

iAtheist said:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes... I want to start off by saying that I'm not here to deconvert anybody, insult anybodys religious beliefs, or imply disrespect. So my question is, what makes the god of the Christian bible anymore significant/real than the rest of the gods still worshipped today? Jews claim that the Torah is proof of the same god that Christians believe in yet is quite different on the important aspects. Muslims believe Allah is the true god and say that the Qur'an is proof of such. The Hindus have various scriptures that they provide as proof of their god, Lord Krishna, including the Bhagvadgita, the 5 Vedas, the Ramayana and more. Taoists also have various scriptures to prove their various gods including Tao Te Ching, Zhuangzi and, Daozang. So to reiterate, I am asking what makes the bible more true than the rest of the religious scriptures still followed today?

Click to expand...

I would not be able to tell you much about the Asian religions, but as for the Torah. The Jews and Muslims both believe in the Torah (first five books of the bible) because it is the Word of G-d, Christians threw it out because of false doctrines/ their belief is that Jesus came and fulfilled all the 613 commandments by doing them and then told others not to do them which is actually defined as breaking the law (sin), so its basically a hypocrite jesus.

Muslims broke off of Judaism directly around the second century I believe. Muslims had Mohammad and through him the rest of the scriptures were changed, problem being that is doesnt line up with the Torah/Torat, therefore making it false. Judaism's problem was the Oral laws that were created made them unable to see the Messiah when he came, so they are still waiting.

The interesting thing about the bible is that from the oldest books to the new, it always lines up and the most proving points are the prophecies, which I can expand on if you like.

Originally Posted by unkern

The interesting thing about the bible is that from the oldest books to the new, it always lines up and the most proving points are the prophecies, which I can expand on if you like.

Click to expand...

Always lines up? the bible contradicts itself left and right, once again, no offense intended, but please do expand.

Click to expand...

From what I hear, the Muslims [along with Judaism] also agree with the atheists and other non-Christian religions concerning contradictions.

I suppose that is one reason Judaism and Islam both have their own Holy Books [Talmud for Judaism and Koran for Islam]. Thoughts?

The charge of 101 contradictions, by Muslim apologist, Shabbir Ally refuted!

The charge of 101 contradictions, by Muslim apologist, Shabbir Ally refuted!

Muslims talk often about the many contradictions in the Bible. The number of contradictions vary depending on whom you are talking to. Kairanvi's Izhar-ul-Haq presents 119 numbered contradictions, while others such as Shabbir Ally have supposedly found 101 contradictions. The problem as they see it concerns their supposition that any religious book claiming absolute divine authority must not include any contradictions, as a message emanating from an Omniscient being must be consistent with itself.

iAtheist said:

so you do agree that the bible contradicts itself a lot or are you just saying that the Muslims would agree with me?

Click to expand...

I believe some of it can be scribal errors and maybe translation problems, but overall, I do not believe the OT and NT contradict each other or my Faith is in Vain.
And no, I will not get into discussing Contradictions. Peace

iAtheist said:

Always lines up? the bible contradicts itself left and right, once again, no offense intended, but please do expand.

Click to expand...

What I mean is that at first site it seems to contradict itself, but that is because it is read incorrectly. I will say that depending on what bible there are a few translation errors, but I assure you it lines up quite well.

unkern said:

What I mean is that at first site it seems to contradict itself, but that is because it is read incorrectly. I will say that depending on what bible there are a few translation errors, but I assure you it lines up quite well.

Click to expand...

every page in the bible has multiple translational errors in it. Everyone puts their own doctrine in the bible when they translate it. Example, most christians believe the word in john 1.1 is some being, so they call the word a he and not an it in john chapter 1. if a translator believe s the word is not a being, then he will call the word an it. either way it's the doctrine of the translator that determines the translation.

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


That seems to be a bit more than a translation error.

I was an agnostic with strong atheist leanings. I'm married to a cradle catholic turned stone cold atheist. I grew up with no religion...no bible in the house...I never attended a single church service(outside of a wedding or baptism) with my parents. So I entered adulthood with really no beliefs at all. Then I encountered religion on a more regular basis and I was deeply skeptical and took a simple "I don't know and you don't either" approach. Then I started to really look into what I assumed had to be a sort of mental illness....belief in the bible. I grew up in a large city in the midwest that is deeply catholic and my neighborhood was very blue collar. The first time I heard what transubstantiation was.....I nearly voided my bowels. I just remember asking over and over...seriously? no..really...you BELIEVE that?? And of course the explanation came from a doofy 17 yo with little faith and it sounded like a zombie plot. So my encounters were not the best...and by my early 20's all my religious encounters seemed to be with some nut explaining why God was gunna cut me down for my beliefs...yeehaw..praise the lard and pass the ammunition,right? I moved from agnostic to atheism.

But then I went back and forth between finding religion utterly ridiculous(and frankly, even now you hear people describe their faith and beliefs in such a way you can only smack your head and walk away) and wondering how something that is so utterly ridiculous can give birth to MLK or Bonhoeffer.(or Ghandi...but that's a different tangent) This contradiction between the religion I was exposed to and the religion that inspired the greatest social justice conquests played with my mind for a long time. I still considered myself an atheist...because even if Jesus was the amazing revolutionary described...this OT God business was a hard pill to swallow. So for a while I considered myself a christian atheist. I bought that Christ was quite the social revolutionary(had a pic that copied the famous Che Guevara pic only with Christ's face) that inspired great things in great people...but the God business seemed absurd.

So at this point I'm in my mid to late 20's....I've read a bunch, I've taken classes, I've attended some church services and I've befriended people from all over the religious spectrum. In hindsight...there were seeds that were planted. One of the seeds was "you've got to serve somebody". Now..I didn't hear that and fall to my knees and declare Christ as my Lord and Savior...hallelujah. Not by a long shot. Eventually I started to wonder if I didn't have my own creeds, my own doctrines, my own belief system, my own personal statement of faith....so in effect, did I have a religious system in place? just one of my own creation? I'm fiercely politically liberal...I'm a socialist...I'm prochoice...I'm pro gay rights....I certainly have some strongly held convictions. My actions..the way I raised my family...how I spent my time and money...my own code was reflected in my life. So that just planted the seed that maybe....just maybe there is a universal truth. Maybe that universal truth is that human beings have to serve somebody....like our genetic code insists that we look for greater meaning than ourselves.

So I enter my early 30's thinking that Jesus was pretty cool...along the lines of other great social justice leaders...after you dust off the dogma people lay at his feet. And I also questioned what I was serving....all the while viewing religion...and especially christianity since I was more familiar with it because I live in the midwest part of america...as a ridiculous myth system designed by humans to control the world that is so utterly out of control. And then a few things happened that had a sort of domino effect. One...a great friend of mine is a methodist minister and I had the ability to have real dialogue where I could really attack some of these religious notions and she would respond in a thoughtful manner. AND....I would say "c'mon....flooding the earth? two living things from every species on earth? That's insane" and she would say "yeah, I know...it's crazy to think that literally happened". So basically the realization that not all religious people checked their common sense at the door blew me away. Here was a woman that I loved and respected....that I partied with.....that volunteered at an HIV positive camp for gay men and took her two small children and they passed her infant son around kissing his face and toes and held him during worship....what gives? One thing she talked about was the wesleyan quadrilateral...scripture, tradition, reason, experience. The possibility existed that God was not an illusion created by fearful illiterate people ....that stunned me. Because really...when I was an atheist that's what I believed. And when I met nonfearful articulate believers I thought they did it out of habit..tradition. So then I felt like I was agnostic...like maybe there could be a God. That was a huge step.

Now here I am...35 and a believer. What gives? It's the domino effect...the realization that all my preconcieved notions about what it means to be religious are really prejudices.(not unfounded or ungrounded or without cause...but prejudices none the less) So imagine being a racist and realizing you were wrong to prejudge a race of people and figuring out how you could approach race to release yourself from that mindset. I started going to church and participating...not observing. I went to an UCC church. I had frank talks with the minister and said things like "I can't get past the virgin birth"...and she told me she didn't believe in the literal virgin birth and pointed me to some more reading. So I'm in a church...and I really enjoy the companionship but my response to these feelings is "but there are still too many obstacles".

Now this is where its going to get a little (insert spooky music) spiritual. Here I am....for the first time in my adult life....open to the remote possibility that God might exist and religious people might not be crazy. So I'm attending church about once every 6 weeks and I love going. The sermons are amazing....timely and always about social justice. The people are great....the biracial lesbian couple that hold hands during worship....the foster family with the 4 multi racial kids.....the pastor(at this church, he's male) has a ponytail and writes music reviews on his blog. And then one week we have a guest pastor and she's an out lesbian that talks about looking at the story of Naomi and Ruth through a prism(on my anniversary). And then another week we have the head of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice come and talk about fighting for reproductive rights and getting active in the abortion debate.(after that one I became a clinic escort) So I'm enjoying myself but feeling distanced because I don't feel like I belong because my mind can't wrap around the creation story...and all this blood atonement....and revelations....I'm obviously incapable of belief. (but it's almost as if God is saying...hey, those roadblocks are gone...look! Gay christians! lol)So I stop going. I give up church becasue I feel like a fraud. And what happens? I miss it. I actually develop a longing for it. I can't give it up. I started reading the bible...and enjoying it. I've always been a bibliophile and suddenly all I want to read about is religion...actually, christianity. I catch myself humming the doxology and the Gloria Patri. I read about anglican prayer beads....and prayed for the first time in my life. I couldn't shake it. And the dominoes kept falling...all of the things that once looked so crazy looked so clear. Like that pastor said....I was starting to view the bible through a prism and instead of seeing a piece of cut glass...I saw a rainbow. Being filled with the Holy Spirit. Ok...before...that sounded nutty and I envisioned someone falling on the floor with a handful of snakes. All it really is is the feeling of being vulnerable when confronted with this awesome love. And in that vulnerability...utterly safe. Like when someone says they found their soul mate...that just means that they feel they can be completely vulnerable and exposed and their true self and fear nothing because they are loved, lumps and all instead of loved in spite of their lumps. So it's like I found my soulmate in Jesus...and suddenly I'm filled with a passion to walk with Christ.

So now the dominos fell. Christianity is about a universal truth. The truth that we all serve somebody...that it's our very human nature(soul?) that cries out for something more than a wake/sleep cycle. That humans have filled the time between wake and sleep with lots of things to serve...but ultimately there is a perfect thing to serve. If you served anything that spoke to a greater truth...you ultimately served God. If you served anything that spoke to love...you served God. When I was filling my days with friends, family, pto meetings, political canvassing, music, art, school, my pets, my yardwork...it was out of love...it was out of justice...that was serving God. We are in unorthodox theology so I can safely add....when Ghandi practiced non violent resistance he was serving God...the same God I serve. He didn't call it that way...but I'm a monotheist...there is one God. That God encompasses every person and every act of love and justice..that is the ultimate truth. You can believe you are serving any creed, any political movement, any quasi religion, any religion, any movement....but if it's rooted in love and justice...you are serving God.

For me, Jesus Christ is divine not because of a virgin birth but because there is a love that is beyond human perception, human barriers, human engagement...and at one point in time one man touched that divine love and in that instant God dwelt in him as in no other before or since. Jesus is the vanishing point...where human meets divine and the parallels are invisible to the eye..when they become one. When we experience Christ we experience the love of God...and the term "experience Christ" doesn't mean sit in a church and say the right things and kneel when it's time...when my daughter nearly hyperventilated in Radio Shack over getting her first cell phone it wasn't because of a piece of electronic equipment...it was a combination of feeling her parents loved her, her parents trusted her, it was a sign of maturity, it made her on par with her peers, it opened up possibilities to her, it was something that was just for her.....it was a real and tangible experience(being handed a phone) and a very emotional intangible one....wrapped into an event. When you experience Christ it's a tangible experience(working at a food bank) mixed with an intangible emotional experience(love) and it's the event of experiencing Christ(the ultimate example of the act of love)....which brings you to the divine(God).(nobody comes to the Father except through me)

Okay...apologies...that's epic...I'm longwinded when I'm tired. It's a terribly long way to say no....I didn't hear someone say you have to serve somebody and I picked up a cross. And to answer the oq...the God of creation is the God of love. The Bible gives us the clearest picture of the one true God. In the Bible we have the only example of when a human actually abided in God's love....Jesus.

And fwiw, I almost deleted this a dozen times because one thing I have learned is that it's easy to be vulnerable in front of God but not so easy in front of Christians,lol. But I did want to answer you fully and honestly...despite the cost to my fee-fees.

Rynomachine said:

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

Click to expand...

these are figures of speech called personifications. It's not literal. A tipoff should be that God is the omipresent spirit, He has no face no backparts, no arms, legs or hamds. God uses personifications to explain things in ways we can understand.

rynomachine said:

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

Click to expand...

These are literal. No man has literally seen God's face or seen God.

rynomachine said:

That seems to be a bit more than a translation error.

Click to expand...

that's because you take all of them in a literal sense. That's how people of all persuasions get messed up interpreting the bible. They interpret figurative verses literally, and literal scriptures figuratively. you say it's a contradiction, trinitarians say it's too deep man to understand, heavy duty scripture, but you both fail to realize that God's word makes sense and is not contradictory. If you proceed from that presumtion, then you will see what God meant. Practically all of humanity likes to interpret the bible so that it makes no sense and is contradictory, both christian and non christian and athiests alike. Trinitarians name 3 gods and then say there is one god, 3 is one, just too deep for us to understand, no contradiction cause 3 is one. in otherwords that mke nonsense and contradictions with their interrpretations, and deny that they do. you make the bible a book of contradictions with your interpretations but don't deny that you do like trinitarians do,, but the effect is the same, both of you are making god's word nonsensical and contradictory. Practically no one reads the bible and says well let's see God is infinitely smarter than me so he must be saying something that makes sense and isn't contradictory, so what is the meaning of this scirpture in that light. No , they say 'ah ha, a contradiction and nonsense, can't be the word of god.." or if a trinitarian they say "ah ha an apparent contradiciton and nonsense, must be deep heavy duty scriptures." You presume that whoever you talk to is making sense, but practically all of humaity won't give that same credit to god.

If I say that "i'm completely out of gas man." meaning that I am very tired, and later on I say to you " I got a full tank of gas in my car." would you presume i contradicted myself, or would you presume my first statement was probably a figure of speech? WEll do the same with the word of God.

2ducklow said:

these are figures of speech called personifications. It's not literal. A tipoff should be that God is the omipresent spirit, He has no face no backparts, no arms, legs or hamds. God uses personifications to explain things in ways we can understand.

Click to expand...

Except we're made in his image?

These are literal. No man has literally seen God's face or seen God.
that's because you take all of them in a literal sense. That's how people of all persuasions get messed up interpreting the bible. They interpret figurative verses literally, and literal scriptures figuratively. you say it's a contradiction, trinitarians say it's too deep man to understand, heavy duty scripture, but you both fail to realize that God's word makes sense and is not contradictory. If you proceed from that presumtion, then you will see what God meant. Practically all of humanity likes to interpret the bible so that it makes no sense and is contradictory, both christian and non christian and athiests alike. Trinitarians name 3 gods and then say there is one god, 3 is one, just too deep for us to understand, no contradiction cause 3 is one. in otherwords that mke nonsense and contradictions with their interrpretations, and deny that they do. you make the bible a book of contradictions with your interpretations but don't deny that you do like trinitarians do,, but the effect is the same, both of you are making god's word nonsensical and contradictory. Practically no one reads the bible and says well let's see God is infinitely smarter than me so he must be saying something that makes sense and isn't contradictory, so what is the meaning of this scirpture in that light. No , they say 'ah ha, a contradiction and nonsense, can't be the word of god.." or if a trinitarian they say "ah ha an apparent contradiciton and nonsense, must be deep heavy duty scriptures." You presume that whoever you talk to is making sense, but practically all of humaity won't give that same credit to god.

If I say that "i'm completely out of gas man." meaning that I am very tired, and later on I say to you " I got a full tank of gas in my car." would you presume i contradicted myself, or would you presume my first statement was probably a figure of speech? WEll do the same with the word of God.

Click to expand...

Assume that half the time that there is a contradiction that god meant something else?

ewhaddix said:

That's a total copout. Nothing infuriates me more than people that teach that the contradictions are because you interpret something wrong. The truth is the Bible is not perfect. It has problems.

I have a hammer that has some chips on the head and the handle has rubber coming apart. It doesn't mean that I should pick up my perfect brand new screwdriver to beat a nail in with. The hammer is still the best tool for the job.

Click to expand...

Please elaborate without resorting to unrelated examples.

I encourage you that if you really want to know why God is the true God, then read the bible. No amount of discussion is going to prove to you anything, until you allow yourself to sit down and get to reading His word. Go ahead and read the Tanakh (the Torah-which are the first five books of Moses are included in the Tanakh--it is our Old Testament) and then go ahead and read the New Testament.

If you seek, then you will find. If you have it in your heart to seek and know, then go ahead and read it with an open and pure heart.

Rynomachine said:

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


That seems to be a bit more than a translation error.

Click to expand...

The verses you quoted under "God can be seen" are taken out of context.
Ex 33:7-11 we are told that "the pillar of cloud" descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle and the Lord talked with Moses." vs 9

In Exo 13:21 we are told this "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night". "Pillar of cloud" was a manifestation of God, it was not actually God.

In Exodus 33:20 right before God shows Moses His back He says

For Genesis 32:30 where Jacob wrestles with God...we are told in Genesis 32:24
But we are told in Hosea 11:9
.
The Man that Jacob wrested with could likely be a manifestation, because God came as "Man" therefore Jacob couldn't have seen God in all His glory. But both Him and Moses got to speak to God face to face for they encountered God, they just didn't get to see His actual true face or they would die. Remember, there was another Man that walked the face of this earth, the only begotten Son of God, whom those who walked among Him were allowed to see face to face and not die.

And the verses that says that "God cannot be seen"
The verses speak of His true nature, we cannot see Him face to face. We do not have any record of anyone seeing the actual face of God, face to face. Seeing Him through a "pilar of cloud", seeing His back and seeing Him as a manifestation of a Man wrestling with Jacob, shows that they had a close encounter and personal relationship with Him, but they did not see His true face.

ewhaddix said:

That's a total copout. Nothing infuriates me more than people that teach that the contradictions are because you interpret something wrong.

Click to expand...

so it can't possibly be a personification because you get angry if I say it is a personification. Not a good reason.

wehaddix said:

have a hammer that has some chips on the head and the handle has rubber coming apart. It doesn't mean that I should pick up my perfect brand new screwdriver to beat a nail in with. The hammer is still the best tool for the job.

Click to expand...

a screwdriver is the b est tool for screwing screws. why use a falling apart hammar to screw screws? In my analogy a perfect screwdriver represents a perfect bible, in your analogy an imperfect hammar represents an imperfect bible. Your analogy presumes the bible is imperfect and my analogy presumes the bible is perfect. neither analogy proves that the bible is perfect or imperfect.

so your response is basically you get angry if I say personification, and you presume the bible is imperfect, so therefore the bible is imperfect. care to rethink this one? IF I get angry and presume does that mean I am right? or does it only work with you in your world?

Rynomachine said:

Except we're made in his image?

Click to expand...

we are not spirit beings. spirit beings do not have arms faces, backsides, eyeballs, tounges, livers, stomachs, hair etc.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: luke24.39 a spirit hath not flesh and bones,

a face, arm tounge, eyeball is flesh. ergo? well you do the math.

rynomachine said:

Assume that half the time that there is a contradiction that god meant something else?

Click to expand...

No assume everytime there is a contradiction it is because you have interpreted one or both of the scriptures incorrectly. and procced to reinterpret those scriptures till there is no contradiction, then VOILA, you will most likely discover what God really meant. Or at the very least it will be a possible interpretation. contradictions are not possible interpretations.
Why? because god is no dummy, he doesn't contradict himself.