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What is your view of atonement?

sparow

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<<3.And He says "he who believes on me shall never die".>>

Here lies the dilemma of the new covenant; what could this possibly mean; suppose He said, “he who trusts in/on me shall never die”; does this mean something different; could He mean, “he who trusts on me to boil eggs will never die”; or, “he who trusts in me to wash My socks will never die”. Suppose He said, “he who trusts in Me to confirm the covenant will never die”; implied is the truster is in covenant with Jesus; rephrased, the truster is atoned with Jesus or the truster is reconciled to Jesus.

John 11:45 (NKJV)
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

But what did they believe, or what should they have believed. What did those Jews who sought to kill Him believe. The Pharisees believed in salvation, but did they have the expectation of eternal life or was their salvation merely to do with this first carnal life (saved from the Romans)?

I am glad to see my idea is not listed below. Theory is to do with science; the definition of science embraces theory; While the word can be used in a secular manner. Scientifically, theory is formally structured making it different to an idea; it was explained to me that mine was an idea; and their reasoning went something like this, if it walks like a duck or if it quacks like a duck or if it swims like a duck then it is not a theory.


The Ransom Theory:

The Recapitulation Theory:

The Satisfaction (or Commercial) Theory:

The Penal-Substitution Theory:

The Moral-Example Theory (or Moral-Influence Theory):

The Governmental Theory:

The Declaratory Theory:


What role does the Holy Spirit play in these theories?
 
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sparow

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I have a simplistic approach; suffering is a consequence of sin, even other peoples sin, (no man is an island). I do not believe God required Jesus to suffer any more than it would be a consequence of shedding of blood, unto death; in accordance with the blood covenant; of which both old and new covenants are. The extremes of Christ's suffering exceeded what the covenant required and amount to the sin of the Pharisees and Rome. The shedding of Blood only enables Atonement; still required is the personal enactment of being one with God, involving both parties of the covenant.
 
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charsan

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sparow

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Death per say is not defeated yet; death still exists; in Christ we have an example of the resurrection of the righteous; Christ was the first to be resurrected incorruptible and over that form death has no power.
 
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Andrewn

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Death per say is not defeated yet; death still exists;
Christ has indeed defeated death:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, yet shall he live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

2Co 5:8 Instead, I say that we are confident and willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Phi 1:21 For to me, to continue living is Christ, and to die is gain.

Death is being separated from Christ. By His death, Christ opened paradise for us to be with Him.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Death per say is not defeated yet; death still exists; in Christ we have an example of the resurrection of the righteous; Christ was the first to be resurrected incorruptible and over that form death has no power.
Death has been defeated.

The consensus of early Christianity is that Christ took those who died before the Cross into a new existence. It is not yet the resurrection of all bodies, but they are no longer waiting in "hades".

By contrast, when St. Stephen the first martyr dies - he sees Christ. The dead who die after the Resurrection experience some foretaste of their final state.

But yes, physical bodies still die until the end of this present age.

But death WAS defeated at the Cross.

I hope that makes sense. I had wondered the same thing when I first heard it.
 
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sparow

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""Death per say is not defeated yet; death still exists; in Christ we have an example of the resurrection of the righteous; Christ was the first to be resurrected incorruptible and over that form death has no power.""

I don't see you disagreeing with me by what you have said and quoted except in terms of Biblical view, abstraction and context (which may involve false doctrine).

What does "defeated death" mean? You say death is being separated from Christ; which is a reasonable conclusion (paraphrase) but by itself rewrites scripture. Death is the penalty of sin, or more explicitly death is the penalty when the blood covenant is broken.

There is a false teaching that says the Law (covenant) is abrogated; and many accept this teaching, yet it is not a teaching of Christ; yet most of those who accept this false teaching have not heard the whole doctrine; which ends with: when the law is abrogated there is no sin; if this were true Christ's death would be useless and meaningless.

Even if a person could claim to be saved their situation is provisional until their actual resurrection. The teaching of Christ is: When drawn by the Father to Christ the covenant is enacted; as the parable says, that person is a seed planted that may grow into harvestable fruit or may grow into tares that will be burnt.

Individually, death is defeated when raised to eternal life; per say, death is defeated when thrown into the lake of fire, when deaths purpose has expired.
 
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sparow

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""Death has been defeated."" I haven' found reference to this in scripture so I assume this is a conclusion you have reached or someone has reached this conclusion on your behalf.
 
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Andrewn

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What does "defeated death" mean? You say death is being separated from Christ; which is a reasonable conclusion (paraphrase) but by itself rewrites scripture.
Eph 2:1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Col 2:13 Even when you were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ by forgiving us all our trespasses.

The above verses show that unregenerate people are dead. How are they dead when they are physically alive? By being separated from Christ. Is there another possible conclusion? Thus death is separation from Christ and this is the Scripture. When we go back to the story of Adam and Eve we find that they died in the day they sinned as they became separated from Yahweh. No?

What is the "blood covenant?" The ceremonial Law has been abrogated. There is no Temple. No Christian and no Rabbinic Jew follows the ceremonial laws, neither should they. The Parochet was torn in two at the crucifixion of the Lord. He entered into the Holy of Holies in heaven. And believers gained access to the Holy of Holies with Him.

Mat 27:51 Suddenly, the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and rocks were split.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as the high priest of the good things that were coming, he went through the greater and more complete tent, which was not made by human hands (that is, it is not part of this creation). 12 He entered once into the Most Holy Place and obtained eternal redemption, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,

Where do you read this?
 
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sparow

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<<Col 2:13 Even when you were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ by forgiving us all our trespasses.

The above verses show that unregenerate people are dead. How are they dead when they are physically alive? By being separated from Christ. Is there another possible conclusion? Thus death is separation from Christ and this is the Scripture.they are When we go back to the story of Adam and Eve we find that they died in the day they sinned as they became separated from Yahweh. No?>>


I am not agreeing or disagreeing with Paul, only your usage. As I recall, it is the term or concept “death defeated” that is the issue we are discussing. In Col 2:13 dead” is used as a metaphor; which means other words could have been used like, lost in your trespasses, omitted in your trespasses, and so on. We can say they are separated because they were lost or omitted from the covenant. Lost can be defeated individually by overcoming; death is not defeated, or disposed of until God has no further use of it.


A blood covenant is not exclusive to God; the Israelite made blood covenants with their neighbours; the American red Indians made blood covenants leading the Mormons to believe the red Indians to be the Lost sheep of Israel. The Blood indicates the seriousness of the covenant; if either party breaks a blood covenant they are put to death. God's blood covenant is more complex in that the penalty is the second death and also in that the covenant of God has a reprieve clause wherein in conjunction with repentance, substitute blood may be used; the blood of God; but all of this depends on the covenant (Law) not being abrogated.


I do not believe the ceremonial Law is abrogated; changed in the sense from a lower level to a higher level, as a grub changes into a butterfly but still the same genus. Christ as High Priest performs the relevant ceremonial laws once yet that once is not in a moment of time but encompasses eternity. Modern day apostles (priests} should take their cue from the ceremonial Law; I believe their role is the governance of the kingdom.


<<sparow said:

Even if a person could claim to be saved their situation is provisional until their actual resurrection. The teaching of Christ is: When drawn by the Father to Christ the covenant is enacted; as the parable says, that person is a seed planted that may grow into harvestable fruit or may grow into tares that will be burnt. Individually, death is defeated when raised to eternal life; per say, death is defeated when thrown into the lake of fire, when deaths purpose has expired.

Where do you read this?

In the Bible; this is an abstract.
 
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Andrewn

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Individually, death is defeated when raised to eternal life;
To show that for believers this has already taken place review the following verses:

Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried together with him through baptism into his death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too can walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

Col 3:1 Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand.

So, the NT provides different definitions of life, death, and resurrection. They're not the physical definitions that are on your mind.
 
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sparow

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sparow

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We may have a misunderstanding and not a disagreement.

Nobody knows they are saved until the resurrection of the righteous, that is until it actually happens. Some faiths teach once saved always saved; this would be true after the resurrection. Many believe they are saved when it is not necessarily so.

Consider the messages to the seven churches in Rev. Two of the seven churches are guaranteed salvation. At least one of the churches is in deep trouble; the rest have to overcome in order to be saved. The two whom are saved are still encouraged to over come in order to receive greater rewards.


Revelation 3:14-16 (NKJV)
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.


In those out of context verses you quote; these verses are typical Biblical Jewish semantics - hyperbole, oral hieroglyphics used to make a point; a point not made to the eternally saved but to those at risk of falling away; you appear to miss the point being made and along with assumptions take Paul's art work or prose, literally.
 
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Andrewn

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Some faiths teach once saved always saved; this would be true after the resurrection. Many believe they are saved when it is not necessarily so.
I don't believe in Calvinism and I'm not discussing OSAS, here.

Nobody knows they are saved until the resurrection of the righteous, that is until it actually happens. . . . you appear to miss the point being made and along with assumptions take Paul's art work or prose, literally.
You may have SDA or JW beliefs about soul sleep. I do take the words of Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul literally and have explained the Christian view. Perhaps others can take over the conversation if they so choose.
 
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renniks

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I never understood why it had to be either /or... Many of the theories have merit, and no one of them covers the extent of the atonement.
 
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Dan Perez

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I never understood why it had to be either /or... Many of the theories have merit, and no one of them covers the extent of the atonement.


Hi and you first have to define what ATONEMENT means and when it began :\\

I believe it began in the GARDEN of EDEN with Adam and Eve !!

My verse proves that Gen 3:21 is where ATONEMENT began !!

So is ATONMENT a work ??

Or is ATONEMENT , FAITH ?

And explains how Adan and Eve were saved !!

dan p
 
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BobRyan

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Christ (high priest) on the cross let his blood (Jn 1:29) fall on Mary (ark of the new covenant) and accomplished atonement and redemption

Is there any "blood fall on Mary" statement in the Bible?
Is there any "Mary - Ark of the New Covenant" statement in the Bible?
Does God's definition for the full scope of atonement as He defines it in Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" end with Christ's work as "the sin offering" or does it also show Christ's work as High Priest?
 
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