What is your opinion please?

I think you are overcomplicating what I'm saying.

I think the Bible does not justify any kind of physical correction or violence to a spouse, no matter what the justification. If you want to say that it happens in your marriage and you are fine with it, then fine - but saying that it is something that is "Christian", is going to do more harm to a new believer reading these threads, than to anyone else who thinks that I'm being judgmental.

Also remember that when you read things under the heading of domestic discipline, they are not neccessarily being utilized with Christian ideals, and will therefore be compromised.

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I didn't say that it is Christian, only that most online references don't take into consideration the ideals that are involved in Christianity. It wasn't saying anything Christianity and the idea of DD, but the fact that when looking at the practice from a Christian perspective and within the realm of a Christian marriage, a decidedly un-Christian source wouldn't be the best to use. I don't think that that is overcomplicating the issue at all. If people are looking at sources where the writers are not influenced by Christ, they are obviously going to encounter many ideas and propositions that will color the entire issue and cause that intial knee-jerk reaction that keeps people from having and honest and open dialogue about the subject.

I don't fully know what DD is....but after reading this link

www.geocities.com/meash47/DD.html

it doesn't sound THAT bad. If the husband were abusive then yea, that's horrible. But if he took away her shopping privileges because she cursed or started smoking again...it doesn't seem so contraversal. From what I understand it can go both ways, the wife can "punish" the husband also. My husband and I practice this to a certain extent...we ask each other for permission before going out w/friends or buying something extra for ourselves. That's pretty common, no?

Jenna said:

Without knowing the nuances of each couples interaction, I just think that people need to be a little more careful about how they choose their words for fear of harming someone with a judgemental tongue.

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I'm probably more sympathetic to that (not wanting people to feel unfairly judged) than I usually sound. However, this forum by nature is a place for people to come and disagree on hot-button issues, so sometimes it's going to take a fairly thick skin. Jenna, you and I have had opposing viewpoints on a couple of threads recently, but I can see how much you love the Lord and your husband. You're pretty brave to come here and defend what you believe in the face of such pointed opposition, and I really admire that.

I thank you for the compliment. I don't know that it is bravery, but maybe more just being darned stubborn. *laughs* I just believe that there are areas where there is a very clear line of right and wrong, but that in the areas that are more grey, folks need to stop and think for a moment before saying rash things. Of course I am against anyone abusing another, no matter what their relationship is. That doesn't mean that anything outside of the socially accepted norm needs to be 'bad' though. Granted, it can be, as not all things permissable are beneficial. However, I think that without looking at an issue from every angle, it is jumping the gun for anyone to be hard on those that they don't understand.

Just as an aside for everyone in the conversation.....

How many can honestly say that they do not hold accountable their spouse, or any close loved one for that matter, who does something harmful? Have you ever stopped talking to someone for a while because they said something mean? Have you ever been less than generous because you thought that someone didn't deserve the full measure of your generosity because of their poor behavior/attitude? Have you ever withheld sex or affection because you were angry or hurt? The examples could go on and on. The point is though is that you are exacting your own form of domestic discipline, whether you realize it or not. You are grooming a person to respond a certain way by either reenforcing their behavior by kindness or "punishing" them through any number of outlets. The main difference here is that some people will establish guidelines for their interaction, what they expect, what they can compromise on, and what demands correction. Is it demeaning for a wife if her husband says that she can't go to a movie with her girlfriends unless she makes good on her promise to wash his work clothes, walk the dog, or whatever? Is it demeaning for a husband to cut up his wife's credit card if she wracks up more debt than they can possibly stay afloat in? These are just some things that I would like folks to ponder. It is easy to say that we should each be personally accountable, but we all know that if we all had the ability to always choose the right path there would never be the struggles that we have in living our faith.

If everyone wants to have an honest discussion about the idea of domestic discipline, then I am game. I am always ready and willing to have engaging conversations with y'all. Let me know where you stand, and maybe we can really have a dialogue.

Wow, what a topic! I personally feel that if a man and wife are mutually comfortable with running thier family using the ideals of DD then that should be thier right (as long as they are not hurting or abusing each other through it). As for me and my wife, we are a partnership. I could never say to her "you can't go out tonight" and she would never say that to me because we are too much about individuality. We are equal. Some call me the "head of the household" but I feel that is only true in certain areas.

For example, she is in charge of the finances since I would be living on the streets if she didn't take over them! But on the other hand, we will explore options for major purchases (like buying a car) and will generally let me have the final say. I never refer to her as less than what I am in our marriage though. I would not be where I am today if not for her!

Jenna said:

If everyone wants to have an honest discussion about the idea of domestic discipline, then I am game. I am always ready and willing to have engaging conversations with y'all. Let me know where you stand, and maybe we can really have a dialogue.

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I think that's what we're trying to do, but it's a topic that provokes a pretty visceral response, so it's a little awkward for us. My point about the websites was that if this is a valid option for Christians, it seems strange that it's mostly the BDSM crowd that's been willing to openly endorse it. Besides that, I really do think it would have been disturbing to me if I had ever seen or suspected that my parents were doing something like that. None of that is meant as an attack. If you think we're missing the point or overlooking something, I really hope you'll say so.

I will agree that you see more of the idea amongst BDSMers. *nods* DD fits in well for those who take their issues with Dominance and submission to a different level. (Notice that I said different, not deeper, farther or better. )

My point about the websites was that if this is a valid option for Christians, it seems strange that it's mostly the BDSM crowd that's been willing to openly endorse it.

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Well, you know, we are always looking for more excuses for a good spanking. *laughs* Yes, yes, I was joking.....er, kind of. *chuckles* Seriously though, there are Christians who want to tackle the concept of domestic discipline, just like there Christians who will tackle the co-existance of their faith and there kink. However, the number of people who will speak candidly on the subject is far fewer than those of other faiths (or lack thereof). So, you'll be less likely to find information on the internet. It IS there though, but takes some digging to find. Many people are not open to sharing because as soon as the subject is broached, it is in a negative light, and not one of exploration. Me, I'm too darned stubborn to care, really. *laughs*

Besides that, I really do think it would have been disturbing to me if I had ever seen or suspected that my parents were doing something like that.

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Yeah, well, how many of us really WANT to delve into the complexity of our parents' relationship? *rubs chin, thinking* Ok, I'm not one of them. lol Seriously though, I'm not understanding about what is so disturbing. You'll have to explain it to me. I'll say that there are areas of what is labeled as domestic discipline that just counts as domestic abuse. I'm not talking about that though. I'm referring strictly to a married couple, both consenting, who establish a measure by which their marriage will function, and there being established consequences for not honoring the agreement reached.

What is so disturbing? Here is some of what I read today on various sites that claimed to be about Christian DD or from people who claimed to be Christians who use Domestic Discipline or

* A husband who shared with us that when his wife needs to be disciplined, say she has a bad attitude, he makes her strip naked, stand in the corner and wait, thinking about what she has done wrong, for him to come in and administer a spanking, after which, she will stand before him naked and ask for his forgivness.

* A woman who has yet to be spanked by her husband and is fearful, everytime she makes a mistake, or makes a decision for fear that her husand will not agree with her, and that this will be the time, and she is afraid that it will hurt and afraid that she will be embarassed.

* A husband and father explaining that when he administers a punishment, which is usually a spanking in his household, for his children and his wife, he feels that he is being God to his family, correcting those he loves so that they will be better.

* A woman who will, when she has gone off her diet, which is something she is not supposed to do, wait till her husband comes home and then beg for him to spank her so she can feel better about herself.

* A woman who writes that prior to marrying her husband and their decision to use DD, she felt all adrift, sure she was going to screw things up, ruin her life and disappoint her parents. But now that he tells her what to do, structures her time, makes all the decisions, and she has only to obey, and do things his way, she feels so much happier. The spankings keep her in line, which she knows she needs.

*One wife is forced to sleep naked as punishment.

* A husband who writes about weekly sessions with his wife to discuss how she is doing. When the discussion is done, she is spanked, not as a punishment, but to keep her "focused", and then he comforts her to assure her that she is loved.

Someone on one site noted the following: " Domestic Discipline has been a part of the BDSM "scene" for a long while, but it was only recently that conservative Christian apologists began making a "Biblical" case for the practice. It falls completely in line, although to the extreme, with that faction's obsession with "authority" and hierarchy, and power and control."

Many of these postings are nothing short of erotic. So called "Christian" DD sources have names like "Power & Love", "Power Theologians" "Spankpro" "The Marriage Bed" (if this is not sexual, why the focus on the bed? This particular site is filled with information (of varying quality) on sex alongside the DD information.

(BEWARE!! If you choose to search for yourself, a lot of sites that list "Christian Domestic Discipline" in bold letters are nothing but porn.)

I object to the notion of husband as all powerful, all knowing and all wise.

Who disciplines the husband? Or are husbands somehow exempt from original sin?

I find the childlike images of the wife who needs to be corrected (often by physical punishment, often naked) insulting and perverted. Do the children have to get naked for their spankings, too? What on earth does that do to them?!

Many of the postings, from both men and women were creepy, sexually charged little stories.

Why, if this is all about discipline, for both wife and children, is there so much talk about sex on these sites?

I simply do not see DD, as so many write about it, as compatable with a Godly marriage. I see in none of this the love and sexual expression of love found in The Song of Solomon. People write on this site about the "sin" of lusting while mastrubating. What on earth do we think is gong through the mind of the husband as he undresses his wife to spank her and then comfort her?!

I have no doubt that there are couples whose DD relationship is not sexually distorted... no, sorry, I have to take that back! The more I think about it, the more I cannot seperate the spanking of the wife, the total physical control of and domination of the woman by the man from a distorted sexual relationship. I am hard pressed to see how any of this brings glory to God.

This is also not fair to husbands! Even if there are relationships where things are not a sexual peversion, why is all the burden placed upon the husband? What happened to a wife as a help suitable for man as we see in Genesis? Instead, we have the husband who has to take all the responsibility for the person who should be his partner, working with him, supporting him as he supports her.

Jenna said:

Seriously though, I'm not understanding about what is so disturbing. You'll have to explain it to me. I'll say that there are areas of what is labeled as domestic discipline that just counts as domestic abuse. I'm not talking about that though. I'm referring strictly to a married couple, both consenting, who establish a measure by which their marriage will function, and there being established consequences for not honoring the agreement reached.

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Yes, I understand you're not talking about abuse. I've been trying to think how best to put it into words. I think there are two interrelated ideas that would have bothered me. First, I think that to me as a young child, it would have looked like violence even if that weren't the intent, or no, maybe not so much like violence as like arguing... there isn't an exact parallel, but it would have brought my parents' unity into question in my mind. The unity of the parents is so foundational to a child's emotional well-being. Even if it's consensual, it's one parent hurting another (causing pain), and I wouldn't have understood it. The other reason is that it would have blurred the distinction between child and adult, which is also critical to a child's sense of security. I mean, you don't routinely see adults being spanked, so why is it happening to Mommy? Is there something flawed about Mommy, is she really not a full-fledged adult (and therefore not able to protect a little kid like me)? You'll have to tell me if this makes any sense, because I'm not sure I'm explaining it at all well.

bliz said:

So called "Christian" DD sources have names like... "The Marriage Bed" (if this is not sexual, why the focus on the bed? This particular site is filled with information (of varying quality) on sex alongside the DD information.

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Are you talking about www.themarriagebed.com? Actually, their position is anti-DD.

Honestly I don't get DD at all - and I do subscribe to aspects of BDSM. I could give my husband total control for "play"; I could not for life. A lot of the websites do not show this as mutual at all, but as the wife being completely subject to the husband. By the way - what about if the hubby messes up? The christian wife isn't supposed to deny her husband intimacy to show her displeasure. She isn't supposed to be disobedient- that will just result in her own punishment. So wifey gets disciplined and hubby gets nothing. This program treats women like children and doesn't allow for reality (guys screw up and break promises too sometimes). What about those times (which I'm sure happen in every marriage) when hubby is struggling and not quite up to his leadership role - how can he lean on his wife when she is used to being taken care of like a child? Also - doesn't this just incite further childish behavior in some women? The way you discipline children typically changes as they mature and better understand their responsibilities, but this program is saying you do this to women for their entire lives? Honestly, this just seems to me like some alternative form of B&D that some Christian tried to associate with the Bible because he was afraid it was a sin.

The more I learn about DD, the more disturbed I am. Not only do I think that this power structure in the home is unhealthy, but I think that it can also lead to many other issues that scar individuals, families and society at large. (I.e. domestic abuse, rape, lowering women’s self esteem and value, male arrogance and degrading of women in general.)

In the cases where domestic discipline involves physical punishment, what is the biblical basis for this?

Hmmmm....... where to start...........

First, nothing I mentioned was geared toward sex, so the topic of conversation has been turned a bit, I think. Why is DD mentioned so frequently in tandem with sex? *laughs* Might it be that the majority of the sources that you've looked at were geared toward those who take it into the sexual realm? *nods* Like I said, it takes a lot of digging to find the materials that are relevant, and not just an outlet for someone's sexual kink. *sigh* Isn't that so often the case on the internet? Let me state, for the record that I am not talking about sex and things that people incorporate into their sex play.

There are many things that people do, and try and justify it by saying that it is "Christian", that is for sure. I'm asuming that it helps them feel better. Still, I count sexual humiliation and purposefully leaving a spouse in fear as types of abuse. I don't see a thing in the bible that supports their link between Christianity and abuse. Still, corruption does not mean that something cannot be used in a positive way. Shoot, how many times have we heard that Christianity is corrupt because of the heinous acts of some of our "spiritual ancestors" who did things like burn people alive and torture them? Does that accurately relfect the concept of Christianity? I don't believe so, just as I don't believe that someone's sexual kink or obsession with control accurately relfects the co-existence of DD and Christianity.

In response to some questions about authority and accountability of a husband, who is a husband's 'Head'? *nods* Yup, you got it. A husband's head is Christ, which means that he is ultimately held accountable by Scripture which has many, many examples of the actions and mindset of a righteous and wise man is. If a man is not adhering to what the Lord says and treats his wife poorly because of it, that is not healthy and qualifies as abuse in my book. At that point, her greater duty is to point him back to his 'Head'. Really folks, so many people here are acting as though because a woman may choose to be submissive to the will of her husband in areas of her weakness, she suddenly becomes a brain-dead and simpering fool. Of course not. Her husband only ever has as much power "over" her as she allows him to have. A man can never force a woman to submit to his will, whether over an item or two in their marriage, or over every aspect of their lives. Women should not be doormats. That is not what we were made for, and I've never even insinuated such. Those who treat their wives as those in the above example have are purposefully seeking to harm a part of their own flesh, and there is nothing Christian about that. I would say that it is THEIR shortcoming though, not something to use against those who have the commonsense and love for themselves and their God-given spouse to refrain from abusive behavior.

Before I close here, I'd like to toss something out there for y'all. What I'd like everyone to remember is that my point is not to make DD attractive to everyone, to convince people that this is something for them. I am just that small voice in the corner, trying to let everyone know that things that are often corrupted can be used in an edifying way. There are those who will never see a positive thing about a husband having authority over his wife, no matter what I say. I'm not here to sway you. All I AM hoping to do is to cause people to think before they speak. Think about it.....what is a person saying when they say that DD is disgusting, is abuse, and questions a person's faith if they incorporate DD in their relationship? *nods* Each person's situation is different, and it is doubtful that anyone is going to bring all of the details to light on a message board to foster understanding. If you paint everyone with the same brush without knowing where they stand and where their heart is, y'all are doing your brothers and sisters in Christ a disservice by making statements that paint them as abusers or doormats. *laughs* Think about it, even from a very simplistic view. I say that I live within a form of DD, a consentual agreement between my husband and myself. When anyone here speaks out against Christians being able to utilize forms of DD in a healthy manner, who do you think you are talking to? Does it put things into perspective more that it isn't some faceless group of perverts out there, just looking for creative (if abusive) ways to get off? My picture is up, look at my face, read my words, and know me. Do I sound like some wilting flower? Do I sound like a woman whose husband micro-manages my every breath and humiliates me to keep me in line? *shakes head* I am not. This woman of power is saying to you in no uncertain terms that contrary to the wealth of voices to the contrary, it IS possible to utilize DD without abusing the concept. Is it the norm? No. That still doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some couples.

sarah marie said:

In the cases where domestic discipline involves physical punishment, what is the biblical basis for this?

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I have yet to find anywhere in the bible where it tells a man to physically correct his wife like parents are instructed to do with their children. If a person wanted to debate the possibility though, they could site the numerous Scripture references of a righteous man rebuking (and sometimes even beating) the foolish, rather than let them continue on their way to self-destruction. I haven't quite worked through all of that, but it is something that I do at leisure. It hasn't been a priority since my husband and I don't use physical punishment (like spanking) as a form of correction.

Jenna said:

It hasn't been a priority since my husband and I don't use physical punishment (like spanking) as a form of correction.

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Is this whole discussion a problem of definitions? From what I've seen, for most people who use the term, DD is pretty much a euphemism for spanking. If DD means something different to you, then of course the reaction of the rest of us will seem extreme. If we are only talking about being accountable and looking to the husband as the head of the family, then that's a different matter altogether. That's just what I'd call Biblical submission (not that that doesn't upset some people too ). The few Christian sources I've found for DD specifically emphasize corporal punishment, so to me that's pretty much the working definition of the term. Is it possible we're not really even talking about the same thing after all?

A major miscommunication......

I don't do so well with euphemism, really. lol I like to just call it as I see it, so I was not referring to corporal punishment (example: spanking). I was speaking more of other forms of correction, like the examples that I had provided earlier in the thread. Still, there seem to be a good number of messages that I get, women basically ranting at me about any man having the authority to correct (or dare I say ...punish?) them at all.

Now, speaking specifically about spanking, I don't believe that it is necessarily wrong just for the sake of being wrong. I think that it depends on the agreement reached between the people involved, really. I don't have any business telling a man and wife that they don't have the right to choose how they want to do things. *shrugs* If a woman thinks that it would help her out to have her bottom warmed after doing something like willfully humiliating her husband in public, that is their business. lol I do believe that any type of corporal punishment used within a marriage should be negotiated and worked through by both parties, else it tends to just lead into abuse. Still, as anyone raising kids knows, a punishment should really fit the offense. I would be looking at someone real close who was looking to always discipline using corporal punishment. I have to say though, it takes an extraordinary man to be able to consistently mete out corporal punishment without being changed or corrupted by it. As with everything, whether it be a corrective "lecture" or a more physical type of correction, everything should be thought out and deeply prayed over. How does Spider-Man say it? With great power comes great responsibility? *wiggles eyebrows* Over all, corporal punishment only seems to work in a healthy manner among a very small percentage of people.

Jenna said:

I was speaking more of other forms of correction, like the examples that I had provided earlier in the thread.

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Then I really read a lot into it that wasn't there. I thought you were saying that spanking is to you what other forms of accountability would be to other wives.

Jenna said:

Now, speaking specifically about spanking, I don't believe that it is necessarily wrong just for the sake of being wrong... I have to say though, it takes an extraordinary man to be able to consistently mete out corporal punishment without being changed or corrupted by it... Over all, corporal punishment only seems to work in a healthy manner among a very small percentage of people.

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I can agree with all of that. (Now I'm the one who'll be taken out of context as supporting DD.) Between what you said in the quote above, and some of Bliz's excellent observations, you've covered what I meant earlier when I said DD was "immature". Well, we've certainly given the OP a lot to think about, anyway.

Why is DD mentioned so frequently in tandem with sex?

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Because it is frequently used in tandem with sex.