What is Wrong with going to Church?

Johnnz · Aug 16, 2012

It's not 'going to church'. That is a wrong mindset to begin with. We are church, people who gather together to share our experiences of living out the life of Jesus.

John
NZ

Alive_Again · Sep 23, 2012

Home fellowships readily offers the opportunity for personal ministry. Personal sharing and testimonies also. The gifts of the Spirit might be more easily rendered.

Really, home fellowships supplement the work being done in larger fellowships where all five fold ministry offices should be present. If this is not the case, people should be open to the Lord adding this ministry in their lives. There is strength in unity and the more are in unity, the more strength. Home fellowships can offer strength in unity, but not like larger fellowships. Also, larger fellowships can offer the many gifts and callings and anointings a place to work together for a common purpose. The increased financial ability gives it a greater potential for outreach, and as you said, public gatherings provide a place where the public can see a sign and respond and be joined to the work of God.

The body has many members and no one can say they have no need of the ministry of the other parts.

I believe one day everyone will meet in home fellowships, but this would be largely out of necessity for the coming persecutions and tax adjustments coming to the church.

calvaryoakville · Oct 20, 2012

That's right janny! let us look at the Lord and not the people around us.. Because God LOOKS IN OUR HEARTS! and not in our outside appearance..

davidbenephraim · Feb 7, 2013

My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?

For me and house, it is the replacement theology so deeply ingrained in Christian doctrine and the Church's seeming unwillingness to change this teaching that keeps us away.

Shalom,
David

Norah63 · Feb 7, 2013

As John says, we are the church, we don't go to church.
Getting together in bunches is where the 'theology' gets started.
Whether it is replacement, oneness, trinity, whatever. Then the
arguments start and when we are at odds, we are not a witness to others of the love and unity that Jesus prayed for.
If congregations are working, then we would see the healing's, and deliverance that
Jesus did. And not just money to build a bigger building.

Alive_Again · Feb 7, 2013

As John says, we are the church, we don't go to church.

True, but it does state in the Word that the "church ' is the house of God when it says that we should known how to behave ourselves in it.

Getting together in bunches is where the 'theology' gets started. Whether it is replacement, oneness, trinity, whatever. Then the arguments start and when we are at odds, we are not a witness to others of the love and unity that Jesus prayed for.

I don't know what "replacement" theology is, but denominations do serve the purpose of having those over us who we approve of. Since we don't agree in doctrine, it's good to have places where they can unite on what they agree on. If what they have does not satisfy or work, they can look at why without having a lot of discord in the house over varying opinions. I believe the Lord will unite His Body in a way like never before in the coming days. I believe it is His plan even now. It's going to take a bit of a shaking probably to make that happen.

There is a wonderful blessing in coming together in large groiups. You have those anointed to worship that others do not really have. Everyone has an anointing to worship, but some are created just for this purpose. You tend to miss out on the different anointings by "staying" in smaller fellowships. It is good to meet once a week this way and all churches should no doubt pursue this.

You're supposed to have the five fold ministry in operation and that takes up at least a third of the living room. They are supposed to minister to the rest of the Body, so it presupposes that other numbers will be present. The other "natural giftings" are supposed to be used in the Body as well. If you're a small group, you won't be served by many of those other anointings, and you won't serve others either as easily. In some cases you might, but in many you would not. We're all supposed to minister to the other in the strength we provide (our anointing) as joints and ligaments work together to enable them to work. The example of a "body" is perfect in that it is many membered. You can only do a certain number of things with one arm or one leg. If you were fortunate enough to have the senses and a hand, and a backbone, you'd still need everyone else to reach your full potential.

The church "came in" together at Pentecost. Jesus walked with the multitudes.He did have the apostles and smaller groups, but they were part of a whole. The early church fellowshipped together and in houses. They were part of a whole. I do not believe that the smaller groups were in any way disjointed in practice (not just theory) from the rest. They held things in common and watched over widows and orphans. They had some that just ministered the Word and stayed in prayer. Hard to pull that off in home fellowships!

The corporate anointing is one of the most wonderful experiences you can have.

If congregations are working, then we would see the healing's, and deliverance that Jesus did. And not just money to build a bigger building.

Congregations are working, they just don't reach their full potential existing in large groups. They also need to grow just like the smaller groups (not in size, but in maturity. In large bodies you hear accounts of how sister so and so saw the Lord and someone else's anointed dream (intended for everyone). Someone's testimony of their healing is meant for all. The supernatural provision someone else received blesses everyone. If I have extra provision and someone else has a need, that is how needs are often met in the church. in a small group, this is less likely to happen.

Of course, you can't say enough about how wonderful small groups can be. You know each other intimately and you cannot replace that, but neither can you replace the larger corporate anointings. We cannot judge them unworthy based on the failures of some groups.

dontwc · Feb 9, 2013

OK. I read the first few pages, but life is short. I can really appreciate both sides of this argument. I have been in really wonderful churches, and some pretty awful and under some controlling leaders and some weak, aimless leaders. I have tried the house church thing, but missed the larger body. I think we need both, but I'd like to see my tithes go more to ministry than to propping up dead real estate that is overpriced in any market.

Dat's all, folks!
Don

Norah63 · Feb 9, 2013

Liked that part John gave about, "joining together to share our experiences of living out the life of Jesus". And what do we imagine that would be? Just asking because all the groups I have ever been in are a sit-an-listen type of meetings. No interaction or speaking, they call it order. Teaching ministry seems to trump fellowship.
And yes Don, the overpriced real estate kind of churches offer little, except forum and something to tell people when they ask, where do you go to church?
I would not discourage a person from attending where ever they choose. For some that might be all the faith they can muster. The different levels of faith in the body of Christ are as varied as mentioned in scripture, by body parts.
This school of life is interesting to say the least.

Johnnz · Feb 9, 2013

"True, but it does state in the Word that the "church ' is the house of God when it says that we should known how to behave ourselves in it."

But that never referred to a building. Christans met in small groups in homes. There the five fold ministry and other gifts operated. 'Church' buildings did not appear until Constantine, more than three centures after Pentecost.

We are that house. Collectively that is true of us. We are also called a temple, a body and a nation. Yet small groups was the NT picture. But buildings aside, the ministry/laity divide, where some are active and the majority are passive participants is quite unbiblical. Our current church buildings reinforce that unbiblical pattern.

John
nZ

Norah63 · Feb 9, 2013

The form you spoke of was what has been experiences in home bible studies, as much as denominations. And we know it is not biblical, still we are all just struggling hopeful Christians. And some even have trouble with that word describing us.
It's called home church. And yes a lot is talked about the 'five-fold' ministry. Then filling the positions gets a bit tricky. Who "feels" called to what. Who's home are we in. Should it go house to house. Some never move only stay in one home. Authority seems to be that house-holder. And this should not be, however the simple fellowship has always ended at the eating together, with visiting afterward. Must admit it might just be as simple as that. Without trying to figure out what a lot of scripture means without the input of all that are there. Is that too confusing, or just time consuming, in our fast paced world.

Johnnz · Feb 9, 2013

Those are real questions, just as it was back then for NT Christians. That included where to meet when persecution was in vogue.

John
NZ

Episaw · Feb 14, 2013

One of the most powerful comments in the whole of the New Testament is when Jesus said "I will build MY church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

Please note that he did not say "I will build THE church" he said MY church.

This speaks to us in the following way.

First If he is going to build his church, it is obvious that he knew there would be a church that is not his.

Second, in saying that he is going to build His church, he is saying he is not going to build your church.

Third, in saying that the gates of hell will not prevail against HIS church, he is saying the gates of hell will prevail against the church that is not his church.

Fourth, this means that just because some people meet together in a building built for religious purposes does not make it HIS church.

Fifth, Unless the church meets in the Name of Jesus is cannot be his church. Meeting in the name of a denomination, a set of rules, a mission statement, or a leaders dream does not make it a church.

Sixth, a church that meets in the name of Jesus welcomes his presence and the supernatural that comes with his presence.

Seventh, a church that believes people will know we love one another by our devotion to doctrine is not His Church.

Eighth, A church that is his church will be filled with people that are aware of His presence when they meet, not aware of how good the meeting was, how good the sermon was, how nice Mary and Joe are.

Ninth, A church that is his Church can meet anywhere and does not separate themselves from all the other believers in town.

Tenth, His Church will only have one senior pastor and that is Jesus who is Lord over all. Unless Jesus rules the roost, it is not his church.

So is your church...your church, or is it HIS CHURCH?

SayaOtonashi · Feb 18, 2013

So I get it. Since we are the church we alone meet the building of the church weather it be a home or a building right? So in a sense as long as you feel god guiding you there no problem with the building?

Johnnz · Feb 20, 2013

SayaOtonashi said:
So I get it. Since we are the church we alone meet the building of the church weather it be a home or a building right? So in a sense as long as you feel god guiding you there no problem with the building?

It's when the building is a package involving regular passive listening to a paid professional, a hierarchical leadership and a professional/laity dichotmony that buldings can become restrictive and life sapping.

John
NZ

BeforeThereWas · Feb 22, 2013

dontwc said:
... I'd like to see my tithes go more to ministry than to propping up dead real estate that is overpriced in any market.

Than take responsibility and proper stewardship over your giving and hand it over to your needy brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus first and foremost, and THEN support that dead facility with what's left over.....if anything.

Communal real estate is a LUXURY, not a necessity, contrary to the popular beliefs of the purely religious.

BTW

Norah63 · Feb 22, 2013

This thread and sabbath an baptize are the most posted threads. That tells us a lot about home groups and cell meetings.
We need to get some unity in these three areas.
Our individule body's are the church that Christ spoke about, as opposed to groups?
How can we come into agreement except by the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Episaw · Feb 22, 2013

It's when the building is a package involving regular passive listening to a paid professional, a hierarchical leadership and a professional/laity dichotmony that buldings can become restrictive and life sapping.

That is 100% true John, but those who can't see it or don't want to see it are those who have a vested interest in keeping the treadmill going.

Norah63 · Feb 22, 2013

Do home groups or cell groups pay anyone to have them. Or lead them.
If so how could they be any diffrent than a small church congregation of any stripe?
Does anyone know?

Johnnz · Feb 22, 2013

Norah63 said:
Do home groups or cell groups pay anyone to have them. Or lead them.
If so how could they be any diffrent than a small church congregation of any stripe?
Does anyone know?

Most will involve unpaid people, especialy when the group is not that big. It's not size that is the principal difference between a house church and a small church congregation. My 21st Feb post set out some significant factors of difference. Egalatarian, participative, relationship focused, low overheads, and demonstrating a style of genuine community are what I see as real differences.

John
NZ

Episaw · Feb 22, 2013

My 21st Feb post set out some significant factors of difference. Egalatarian, participative, relationship focused, low overheads, and demonstrating a style of genuine community are what I see as real differences.

Now where have I seen that before in different words? Ah, yes, I know. In the New Testament.

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