What is wrong with Calvinism ?

QvQ said:

Born Again
1) Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ
2) Baptism with the Holy Ghost
Peter believed and understood as natural man but it was the Holy Spirit that turned the belief into Faith.
That is born again.

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And when does the Baptism with the Holy Ghost begin?

QvQ said:

Born Again
1) Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ

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How do men believe something that isn't revealed to them?

The Gospel was a mystery not revealed in prior ages. I haven't seen one person address this particular point.

Consider:

Romans 16:25-26
King James Version

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


If you (or someone else) would like to address the Scripture and the doctrine of the Mystery of the Gospel then we can move on to more passages that speak about the fact that the Gospel was not revealed prior to the beginning of this Age. That began when the Comforter came at Pentecost and began His convicting ministry.

Paul devotes a chapter and a lalf to the mystery in 1 Corinthians. Start at about 1 Corinthians 1:18 and read through chapter two. Then consider these verses again:


Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


The Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed in the Old Testament. It is found, but not revealed to their understanding.

Consider:

Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


How did Abraham understand what we know is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? That he would have a physical son. He knew nothing about Jesus Christ and His death in his stead (See Romans 4).

We see above that "the Gospel" Abraham received was that through him (Abraham, and specifically his offspring) all nations of the earth would be blessed.

That's it. Read Romans 4 and see that his faith is credited as righteousness for believing this. He is, in other words, justified because he believes that God will give him a son through a woman beyond bearing age and that all familes of the earth would be blessed through that seed.

He was not justified because he believed Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again. I have mentioned before that if this is viewed as a means of eternal redemption, then we must account all Jews who reject Jesus Christ and still await God sending the Messiah to also be eternally redeemed and born again.

Who does that?

He, Abraham, "rejoiced to see the day of Christ" represents his faith in God's promise, not that he had special info and understood the Gospel. Romans Four makes it clear what he believed, as does James 2 (which is supported by Hebrews 11:17-19).

So again, just one aspect of my position is that it is quite impossible for men to be born again without believing the Gospel. And the Gospel is revealed by the Comforter Who came on the Day of Pentecost.

P1LGR1M said:

If I ask you, "What do you understand about the Mystery of the Gospel," what would you say? Is it a doctrine you are familiar with?

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The gospel I know. What you mean by the doctrine of the Mystery of the gospel I don't know.

zoidar said:

The gospel I know. What you mean by the doctrine of the Mystery of the gospel I don't know.

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I have to get going, but take a look at the passages already presented in this thread and it will give you an idea of what paul taught.

Another passage is found here:


Ephesians 3
King James Version

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


This is basically what Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 2. There also he states that this knowledge is revealed by the Spirit of God, and that would be a reference to the Comforter (Who performs the convicting ministry in the hearts of unbelievers (John 16:7-9)).

Some have viewed this as meaning that the Mystery was not revealed to gentiles, but the problem with that is that we would have to limit knowledge of the Gospel only to those of Israel, and this would exclude all of the faithful prior to the establishment of Israel and the Covenant of Law. We also see in Paul's teaching that this Mystery was kept secret from the beginning of the world, so that doesn't allow for Israel to know and not the Gentiles.

We also take into account that the New Creature, which is a result of Regeneration (the New Birth) is not made up of Jew and Gentile, for in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile). Both Jew and Gentile received the revelation of the Gospel at the same time, thus was the separation between the two resolved.

Hope that is enough to stir up interest in the issue, and let me know of any objections you might have (I love those, lol, and they make it interesting for me, too).

God bless.

Mark Quayle said:

I don't see that saying that God has chosen not to save some. I'm guessing the question never came up. He made the Elect for his particular creation. He made the rest for another purpose. Because of sin, both the Elect and the rest of humanity deserve death and Hell. But God, according to his purposes, saves those he chose to save. The rest are still going to Hell.

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John Mullally said:

The end of your paragraph contradicts the opening sentence.

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Mark Quayle said:

Not at all. Only in the logical POV that desires the conclusion of the matter. When God made some for members of the Bride of Christ, and others for the purpose of producing/building that Bride, yes, inevitably, the sinner will get what they deserve. But that end is not in itself THE reason he created them. There is no pool of generic possibles for God to pick from; rather he created each of us for his specific use.

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At the top, there is no way you believe both your first sentence (in bold) and your later statements in bold. It does not matter why God chooses to do what He does - your sections of that post contradict. 'To Thine Own Self Be True', Meaning & Context

P1LGR1M said:

If I ask you, "What do you understand about the Mystery of the Gospel," what would you say? Is it a doctrine you are familiar with?

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There have been discussion on this thread about the secret councils of God. Is that what you mean?

P1LGR1M said:

And when does the Baptism with the Holy Ghost begin?

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When hearing the Word. Then a person is born again, being baptized by the Holy Spirit, for by grace are you saved through Faith. So salvation is an act by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion, Faith

However you said:
These people believe but are not saved..
So we have 4 groups who hear the Word and Believe yet have not Faith
1) Lukewarm
2) Nominal
3) Understanding of natural mind
4) Believe but do not have Faith
Salvation is "for by grace you have been saved through faith." Salvation is Grace (Holy Spirit) activating belief into Faith. I would say that "ignition" is regeneration or at least the start.

P1LGR1M said:

I have to get going, but take a look at the passages already presented in this thread and it will give you an idea of what paul taught.

Another passage is found here:


Ephesians 3
King James Version

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


This is basically what Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 2. There also he states that this knowledge is revealed by the Spirit of God, and that would be a reference to the Comforter (Who performs the convicting ministry in the hearts of unbelievers (John 16:7-9)).

Some have viewed this as meaning that the Mystery was not revealed to gentiles, but the problem with that is that we would have to limit knowledge of the Gospel only to those of Israel, and this would exclude all of the faithful prior to the establishment of Israel and the Covenant of Law. We also see in Paul's teaching that this Mystery was kept secret from the beginning of the world, so that doesn't allow for Israel to know and not the Gentiles.

We also take into account that the New Creature, which is a result of Regeneration (the New Birth) is not made up of Jew and Gentile, for in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile). Both Jew and Gentile received the revelation of the Gospel at the same time, thus was the separation between the two resolved.

Hope that is enough to stir up interest in the issue, and let me know of any objections you might have (I love those, lol, and they make it interesting for me, too).

God bless.

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Isn't the mystery God that He gave up His Son for all men?

John Mullally said:

At the top, there is no way you believe both your first sentence (in bold) and your later statements in bold. It does not matter why God chooses to do what He does - your sections of that post contradict. 'To Thine Own Self Be True', Meaning & Context

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They are dead in their sin and enmity with God, and they are going to the Lake of Fire —this is the default fact. It is what will happen to all of us apart from God's mercy and choosing some for his particular purpose. God did not "choose not to save some". It is not that the option was available for him to do differently from what he did. It did not come up. God is the very CAUSE of what we consider 'options'. He does not work within what we think of as 'the available options'. He causes the facts.

God did not create, then consider whether or not to save some or to elect others. What he did was create the elect for one purpose or use, and the reprobate for another. God doesn't need to think like we do. He is not like us.

zoidar said:

Isn't the mystery God that He gave up His Son for all men?

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According to Eph 3 the mystery is that the Gentiles are included, no? Is that what you meant by "all men"?

Mark Quayle said:

According to Eph 3 the mystery is that the Gentiles are included, no? Is that what you meant by "all men"?

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I meant both. Not only to all Jews, but also to all Gentiles.

zoidar said:

I meant both. Not only to all Jews, but also to all Gentiles.

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Agreed, not ALL without exception.

Mark Quayle said:

Agreed, not ALL without exception.

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to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
— Ephesians 3:6

The promise is to the group of Jews (all without exception) and the group of Gentiles (all without exception), to whoever believes (John 3:16) ✝️

zoidar said:

to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
— Ephesians 3:6

The promise is to the group of Jews (all without exception) and the group of Gentiles (all without exception), to whoever believes (John 3:16) ✝️

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Haha, "...and around we go again!".

QvQ said:

There have been discussion on this thread about the secret councils of God. Is that what you mean?

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That is one way it might be phrased, but I have no idea what the thread consisted of, so I cannot say whether that is what the context was.

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ refers to the fact that while the Gospel is presented in the Old Testament (i.e., Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 53, Genesis 12, Genesis 15), understanding of the Gospel was not given to men. Abraham understood the Gospel like this: God promised to give him a son through a woman beyond the age of bearing and that all families/nations of the earth would be blessed through that offspring. But we, having the revelation of the Gospel from the Comforter, understand it as God would, through Abraham, provide a Seed (offspring, and singular) through Abraham's lineage that would be God manifest in the flesh, and that He died in the stead of the sinner that the sinner might have eternal life (John 3:9-16).

Receiving eternal life was not possible until Christ died on the Cross (John 3:14). That is why God gave His Son to die on the Cross—that men might receive eternal life during their lifetime, rather than the Old Testament understanding of receiving it at The Resurrection. The Resurrection of the dead was understood as a single point of time and lacked details we know today, such as multiple resurrections (Revelation 20:1-6; Revelation 20:11-18) and glorification.

"The riches of the glory of the Mystery of Christ" is Christ in us, or in other words, the eternal indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (John 14:15-23).

A few passages to read about the Mystery of Christ would be Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:1-9, 1 Corinthians 1:18-1 Corinthians 2:1-16, and Colossians 1:25-27.

There are other references as well, such as the union between a man and woman in marriage being likened to our marriage to Christ (Ephesians 5:31-32), but that should be enough to get you started.


Continued...

QvQ said:

When hearing the Word. Then a person is born again, being baptized by the Holy Spirit, for by grace are you saved through Faith. So salvation is an act by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion, Faith

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Actually, they are not baptized by the Holy Ghost, for Christ is the Baptizer. That is why it is called the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, not the Baptism by the Holy Ghost.

But I agree it is the Spirit of God that brings conviction upon the sinner, for this is the first priority of the Holy Ghost in His ministry as Comforter. He has always ministered in and through men and women, but the difference between the Old Testament Ages and this one is that He is now revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus Christ teaches that when He would come (which would not take place until after Christ returned to His Father's House, Heaven) He would convict sinners concerning their unbelief (John 16:7-9).

So one hears the Gospel and is then ministered to by the Spirit of God. He gives the sinner the understanding of their sinfulness and the sinner responds to this ministry. They can reject, and most will. Jesus taught a many/few ration between the lost and the saved.

QvQ said:

However you said:
These people believe but are not saved..
So we have 4 groups who hear the Word and Believe yet have not Faith
1) Lukewarm
2) Nominal
3) Understanding of natural mind
4) Believe but do not have Faith
Salvation is "for by grace you have been saved through faith." Salvation is Grace (Holy Spirit) activating belief into Faith. I would say that "ignition" is regeneration or at least the start.

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1) lukewarm hearers are said to be spewed out of the Lord's mouth, or in other words—He rejects this. There are no lukewarm "believers."

2) Nominal "Christianity" is not Christianity.

3) There is no understanding for the natural mind apart from the ministry of the Comforter Who makes the natural mind to know truth. One can understand the basics, but that is not to say they understand it as a reality. The fear of Hell is just one of the facets of the Comforter's ministry:


John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


We are either children of God through New Birth (John 1:11-13) or we are children of the devil. Those are the only two options Scripture provides.


4) devils believe—and tremble.

It is possible for men to be under conviction and have an understanding of the truth but remain in a state of rejection of the truth. This is Peter's point in 2 Peter 2:20-22.

Only when belief is accompanied by obedience to the Gospel is faith possible.

QvQ said:

Salvation is "for by grace you have been saved through faith." Salvation is Grace (Holy Spirit) activating belief into Faith. I would say that "ignition" is regeneration or at least the start.

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Actually, no, salvation is not "for grace you have been saved through faith."

We have been saved by grace through faith.

Big difference: if you were saved by faith then you were saved by something you did, as opposed to what Christ did. If you went to Minnesota by train you would not confuse that and say you went to train by Minnesota, right? So it is important to understand that salvation is, and always has been, and always will be by grace alone.

Unless God opens our hearts to truth we cannot receive or perceive as natural men—there is no means of salvation.

Unless we respond to that truth in obedience there is no salvation.

Those who reject Christ will go into Eternal Separation, which is a continuance of the separation they are presently in. The only remedy for that separation is to be brought into union with Eternal God, and it is because we are placed in Him (and He in us) that we have eternal life. We partake of that divine nature.

God bless.

zoidar said:

Isn't the mystery God that He gave up His Son for all men?

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In part, yes, but as Paul states in Colossians 1:25-27, another aspect is the eternal indwelling of God. "The riches of the glory of the mystery is Christ in us.

This is something "Eye had not seen, ear had not heard, nor had it entered into the hearts of men."

I just gave several passages you can look at to get an idea of the Mystery of Christ if you want to take a look.

One of the things that is important about this doctrine is that we see a distinct change in salvation between the Old Testament and the New. It is the same salvation, to be sure, but we (those in relationship with God through the New Covenant) have an added step in the progression of Eternal Redemption, and that is our being baptized into Christ.

The Old Testament was not.

Some will ask, "Does this mean they were not saved?" The answer is no, they were saved from the eternal perspective of God, but they were not born again during their lifetimes as we are. This can be likened to the "step" we have not yet been granted and that is glorification. That will not take place in the Body of Christ until the Rapture.

But we are no less saved because we have not been glorified, just as the Old Testament Saint was no less saved because they were not born again during their lifetime. They died not having received eternal remission of sins, but received it when Christ died on the Cross (Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 9:12-15, Romans 3:24-25).

The Old Testament Saints received progressive revelation concerning salvation through a Messiah, so we understand that Isaiah had more knowledge about Him than Adam, Noah, and Abraham. The women at the well, a woman of Samaria, was awaiting Christ. But it would not be until after He died that a proper context for why Christ is the Savior was revealed unto men (by the Spirit sent down from Heaven (John 16:7-9; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Today, many Jews have rejected Jesus Christ and are still awaiting Prophecy to be fulfilled. We would not ascribe belief and faith unto them, but many do that very thing with the Old Testament Saint. The saying is popular, "They were saved by looking forward to the Cross," but the problem with that is that many of the Old Testament Saints had no idea about the Cross. They had no idea that the Messiah would die. Even the disciples expected a physical fulfillment, which is not unjustified, because there will be a physical fulfillment.

but they didn't understand the death of Christ in their stead. This is why Peter was willing to commit murder in the Garden of Gethsemane—to keep Jesus from the Cross.

That is why he rejected the Gospel and rebuked Christ, saying basically, "No, Lord, the only thing that keep me from eternal separation—I don't want that to happen!" (Matthew 16:20-23)

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of the first things I recommend to people who seek to understand their salvation. When you understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ you understand the magnitude of the Cross, and what Christ has done for us.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

if you were saved by faith then you were saved by something you did, as opposed to what Christ did.

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Faith is not something a person does, anymore than grace is something man does.
Faith is by the grace of God. It is not an act of will. A person cannot will or work himself to a state of Grace or Faith.
I suppose it has something to do with the confusion between believing and Faith that denominational theology has assigned "faith" as merely an intellectual assent to the Word.

Mark Quayle said:

According to Eph 3 the mystery is that the Gentiles are included, no? Is that what you meant by "all men"?

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Ephesians 3 does not present the Gospel as meaning "Gentiles are included." That is the conclusion of those who skim-study the Mystery of the Gospel.

If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel. But what does Scripture say? That all have fallen short, right? There is none righteous, right?

Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel.

Third, we look at all of Paul's teaching concerning the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ and understand that it simply was not made known to men in past Ages or generations. That is all-inclusive.

Gentiles were not "included," nor was this a mystery:

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Gentile inclusion is no mystery. It was prophesied in detail. It is part of God's promise to Abraham, "In thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

Lastly, we see that Gentiles do not become a part of the Covenant of Law (which is specific to Israel, and the means of relationship to God in that Age), but they, like the Jews—become members of the Church.

And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated:


Galatians 3:22-28
King James Version

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


The riches of the glory of the Mystery is Christ in us. That is for both Jew and Gentile.

God bless.

QvQ said:

Faith is not something a person does, anymore than grace is something man does.
Faith is by the grace of God. It is not an act of will. A person cannot will or work himself to a state of Grace or Faith.
I suppose it has something to do with the confusion between believing and Faith that denominational theology has assigned "faith" as merely an intellectual assent to the Word.

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Faith is, as I have said, a result of the grace of God and the ministry He performs in our hearts to bring us to conviction.

I have to get going, but could you quote me where I said something that implied faith is merely an effort of men?


God bless.

QvQ said:

Born Again
1) Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ
2) Baptism with the Holy Ghost
Peter believed and understood as natural man.
It was the Holy Spirit that turned the belief into Faith.
That is born again.

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Sounds like by "faith" you mean not just belief (fide) but also trusting on (fiduce), which is the meaning of NT faith.