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First. . .Pelagius' entrance into the picture changes the reference points for the church at that point. Is what they meant by "free will" what Pelagius meant, who used the definition of the philosophers, or is it what Scripture presents?
Secondly. . ."facts" are in the eye of the beholder.
That Calvin may deal with the same issues as they, does not mean Calvin's foundation is they.
Please demonstrate, from Calvin himself, what you know about Calvin's foundation.
Pelagius likewise uses "free will" in his dealing with Scripture, but that does not mean "free will" is found in Scripture.
Scripture shows voluntary choice, it states nothing about "free will."
The voluntary choice of Scripture and the "free will" of the philosophers are not the same thing.
Irrelevant to the point.Calvin carried on so much from his day with Catholicism and the rule of the king. Unbiblical ideologies along with being a student of augustine. There is nothing uplifting in his theology, its dark. I know as I've taught it for decades. Those still in it are blind to it until God opens their minds/hearts ( a stronghold )
My son in law a calvinist pastor is starting to come out of it through many personal discussions, prayers, challenges and going back to the nature and character of God and His innate attributes which are in direct opposition to calvins teachings.
hope this helps !!!
Sure you do its calvinism hook line and sinker. Do you really think you can fool me lol. I know all the arguments for and against calvinism.I neither "teach" nor espouse "isms," I teach and espouse Scripture.
If you assert Calvin is contra-Biblical, I expect you to demonstrate such from Calvin.
Do you actually believe that God has decided that only part of mankind will be saved and the rest will not be saved but either destroyed or punished eternally?Irrelevant to the point.
I neither "teach" nor espouse "isms," I teach and espouse Scripture.
If you assert Calvin is contra-Biblical, I expect you to demonstrate such from Calvin.
It depends on what they meant by "free will."Was the entire church wrong for 400 years +/- until Augustine came along?
Yes it all boils down to a misunderstanding of who God is and His attributes. Theology ( the study of God ) begins and ends with His nature, character and attributes. And calvin got that wrong.Do you actually believe that God has decided that only part of mankind will be saved and the rest will not be saved but either destroyed or punished eternally?
Yeah. . .those pesky distinctions necessary in correctly understanding truth can be annoying.Amen get ready for revisionism or evasion or equivocation.
Let me know when you can refute this post # 2609 and 2610 both filled with scripture refuting calvinism.Yeah. . .those pesky distinctions necessary in understanding truth correctly can be annoying.
Since you have not demonstrated my assertion to be wrong that Scripture is my source for everything, and since you identify Calvin with me, you have thereby demonstrated that Calvin is Biblical.Sure you do its calvinism hook line and sinker. Do you really think you can fool me lol. I know all the arguments for and against calvinism.
Neither. . .I would state it differently.Do you deny or affirm tulip ?
Don't think I will likewise be posting a wall of Scripture in rebuttal.I also noticed there was no response to the plethora of scripture I posted that refutes calvin/calvinism.
Thanks for the evasion and ignoring my posts filled with scripture that opposes your views.Since you have not demonstrated that Scripture is not my source for everything as I claim, and since you identify Calvin with me, you have demonstrated that Calvin is Biblical.
Neither. . .I would state it differently.
Don't think I will likewise be posting a wall of Scripture in rebuttal.
I will simply point out the obvious: you set Scripture against itself, you do not harmonize it, de facto proof that you do not understand it.
bump for @Clare73The Golden Rule of Interpretation
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society
Thayers
Cosmos: the inhabitants of the
5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.
6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone not exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.
Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).
We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.
So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism)
I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.
Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.
Praise God for His word, His truth, His ways and not the traditions of men who make void the word of God. On Christ the solid Rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.
Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any ISM ( formerly calvinism) to cloud my view of Scripture.
I'm so happy I'm not trapped by any box, ism or anything else that would cloud my view of his Holy Word. To Him be the Glory forever and ever , Amen.
What a Glorious Savior of the World we have in Jesus- Hallelujah !
bump for @Clare73Yes God indeed loves everyone as we read in Scripture below, not just a few, the elect, the chosen ones.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
hope this helps !!!
FIrst. . .Pelagius' entrance into the picture changes the reference points for the church at that point.
I believe, per the Scriptures, that will be the outcome at the end of time.Do you actually believe that God has decided that only part of mankind will be saved and the rest will not be saved but either destroyed or punished eternally?
The Golden Rule of Interpretation
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society
BingoJehovah's Witnesses claim a similar thing about the Trinty, that the counsel of Nicaea AD 325 changed the reference point of who God is.
Can you show that the Early Church Fathers didn't hold the same position on free will as Pelagius?
I'll have a look, and see if I want to engage them.Let me know when you can refute this post # 2609 and 2610 both filled with scripture refuting calvinism.
You are a calvinist right ?
Who doesn't want to engage with scripture ?I'll have a look, and see if I want to engage them.
I don't want to engage in a harangue. Suffice it to say thatWho doesn't want to engage with scripture ?
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