What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

John Mullally said:
How about God being misrepresented?

How about Biblical demonstration of your assertion, without which it has no Biblical merit?

Feel free to exegete:
Romans 9:18-19,
Romans 9:20-21,
Romans 9:22-23,
being true to their words, their context and the whole counsel of God.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Yes, your post #2338 You said: How can a baby be born without a decision to be so?

And where do you see anything about a baby asking a question?

Is this also your method of reading Scripture?

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

Greg Cheney said:
Actually the word is ordained, and it does not mean preordained. It refers to a disposition or alignment.

Which according to John 3:3-8 cannot occur apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in rebirth.

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

Those who were obedient to God were "positioned" to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. Their submission to God aligned or positioned them to submit to Christ.

Greg Cheney · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
The issue is not lack of Biblical evidence, the issue is lack of understanding of it:

John 3:3-8 - "No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

True, no one can be acquainted with the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. But this does not prove the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace and that man does not have the ability to submit to God until God gives him the ability. The carnal mind is at enmity with the Kingdom of God. When the carnal man repents and submits to Christ - this is regeneration - the new birth - a man humbly submitting to God and rightly using the abilities God created him with. Now he can see because he is no longer in rebellion against God. The problem in these kinds of discussions is that people define soteriological terms differently.

Greg Cheney · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
Which according to John 3:3-8 cannot occur apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in rebirth.

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

True, no one can be acquainted with the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. But this does not prove the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace and that man does not have the ability to submit to God until God gives him the ability. The carnal mind is at enmity with the Kingdom of God. When the carnal man repents and submits to Christ - this is regeneration - the new birth - a man humbly submitting to God and rightly using the abilities God created him with. Now he can see because he is no longer in rebellion against God. The problem in these kinds of discussions is that people define soteriological terms differently.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

Greg Cheney said:
True, no one can be acquainted with the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. But
this does not prove the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace

You will find "irresistible grace" nowhere in the writings of Calvin.
You are dismantling a strawman.

and
that man does not have the ability to submit to God until God gives him the ability.

Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 prove just that. . .

The carnal mind is at enmity with the Kingdom of God.
When the carnal man repents and submits to Christ

Which Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 deny that unregenerate (without the Spirit) man is able to do.

- this is regeneration - the new birth - a man humbly submitting to God and rightly using the abilities God created him with. Now he can see because he is no longer in rebellion against God. The problem in these kinds of discussions is that people define soteriological terms differently.

Nope. . .

Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 are absolutely clear that on his own man can do absolutely nothing spiritually beneficial.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
The issue is not lack of Biblical evidence, the issue is lack of understanding of it:

John 3:3-8 - "No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

Depending on what you mean by ANYTHING! I would start by saying the most important thing that happened in my life was to start hearing and reading the word of God. I was not brought up in a Christian home and we rarely ever saw a bible. I would say the first thing that happened in my life at about the age of 32, I started going to church with my wife and our 3 young children and I heard the gospel being proclaimed for a few months and came to realize in my mind and heart that I needed to confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I did that one night driving to work at about 11:30pm after hearing a radio preacher give an invitation of anyone listening, and going down a half mile high hill before I reached the bottom of that hill, in my heart I knew He heard my prayer and came into my life. And can say surely, from that moment on to the present that I saw Him give me the desire to obey and apply His words into my life, and after all these years that desire is stronger than ever because in the process of time I have learned a lot of scripture that tells me why I want to obey him, like Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and do of His good pleasure and this is why every Christian should examine ourselves to see if that desire is in our hearts and if not, examine ourselves that we are walking in the faith, because along with salvation it should produce that desire in our hearts because of Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God before ordained that we should walk in them. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and the Holy Spirit guides us into all truths as we keep reading and studying His word. And all believer should become aware of what scripture teaches on the point of receiving God gift of salvation, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice of giving His life for us that we have His righteousness credited to our accounts and our sin debt is paid in full unto the day of redemption.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
And where do you see anything about a baby asking a question?

Is this also your method of reading Scripture?

No I added in my post to when you first mentioned the baby, that is why I said you brought it up. So I would ask you, what you ask me: Is this your method of reading scripture, to take it out of context, as you did concerning who brought up the baby?

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Depending on what you mean by ANYTHING!

The same thing John 3:3-8 shows it to be; i.e., anything spiritual, because we are spiritually dead until we are born again.
Spiritually dead men make no spiritually alive responses, like faith, repentance, hearing, obeying.

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

I would start by saying the most important thing that happened in my life was to start hearing and reading the word of God. I was not brought up in a Christian home and we rarely ever saw a bible. I would say the first thing that happened in my life at about the age of 32, I started going to church with my wife and our 3 young children and I heard the gospel being proclaimed for a few months and came to realize in my mind and heart that I needed to confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior,

All of which is the work of the Holy Spirit within you.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
No I added in my post to when you first mentioned the baby, that is why I said you brought it up. So I would ask you, what you ask me: Is this your method of reading scripture, to take it out of context, as you did concerning who brought up the baby?

Wow. . .

Brought up "the baby". . .or brought up "the question"?

zoidar · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
The same thing John 3:3-8 shows it to be; i.e., anything spiritual, because we are spiritually dead until we are born again.
Spiritually dead men make no spiritually alive responses, like faith, repentance, hearing, obeying.

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

All of which is the work of the Holy Spirit within you.

Born again means born of the Holy Spirit, means received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, means have become a child of God, means received faith, means being saved. It the same thing. Regeneration is such of an unnecessary word.

Greg Cheney · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
You will find "irresistible grace" nowhere in the writings of Calvin.
You are dismantling a strawman.

Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 prove just that. . .
Which Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 deny that unregenerate (without the Spirit) man is able to do.

Nope. . .

Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 are absolutely clear that on his own man can do absolutely nothing spiritually beneficial.

Its absolutely clear to Calvinists. I could list many verses that say otherwise, but conversations with convinced Calvinists are too often fruitless.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

zoidar said:
Born again means born of the Holy Spirit, means received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, means have become a child of God, means received faith, means being saved. It the same thing. Regeneration is such of an unecessary word.

Regeneration (palingenesia) is a Biblical word (Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23), which means it is not unnecessary, right?

iwbswiaihl · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
The same thing John 3:3-8 shows it to be; i.e., anything spiritual, because we are spiritually dead until we are born again.
Spiritually dead men make no spiritually alive responses, like faith, repentance, hearing, obeying.

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

There is your sequence, rebirth must come first, before anything else can happen.

All of which is the work of the Holy Spirit within you.

This is where you can read where my scripture: show me yours in the bible, letter and chapter/verse
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Romans 1:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Sure seems to say faith comes by hearing the word of God. Which is the only way to fulfill this verse: Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please God, which would surely means we have to come to faith by hearing the word of God so that we might believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Which would say to me, it fulfills what the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah to write: Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. So scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God, and Isaiah wrote His word does not return to Him void, so this disproves what you said, because Romans 10:17 is written to those that are lost, aren't they? Like believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, is this talking to a saved person or one that needs to be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 are absolutely clear that on his own man can do absolutely nothing spiritually beneficial.

Greg Cheney said:
Its absolutely clear to Calvinists. I could list many verses that say otherwise, but conversations with convinced Calvinists are too often fruitless.

You're setting Scripture against itself, which is misunderstanding, for God does not contradict himself.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
Wow. . .

Brought up "the baby". . .or brought up "the question"?

I get your point, you need to at least feel like you win one, ok, I ---------------just can't pretend you are right! honesty prevails

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
This is where you can read where my scripture:
show me yours in the bible, letter and chapter/verse

Only when you have demonstrated your claim that yours in the following actually exclude regeneration first, as required in John 3:3-8.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Romans 1:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Sure seems to say faith comes by hearing the word of God. Which is the only way to fulfill this verse: Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please God, which would surely means we have to come to faith by hearing the word of God so that we might believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Which would say to me, it fulfills what the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah to write: Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. So scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God, and Isaiah wrote His word does not return to Him void, so this disproves what you said, because Romans 10:17 is written to those that are lost, aren't they? Like believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, is this talking to a saved person or one that needs to be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
I get your point, you need to at least feel like you win one, ok,
I ---------------just can't pretend you are right! honesty prevails

Your issue with admitting the facts?

Seems precision is not important to you. . .you won't correctly understand the Scriptures without it.

zoidar · Jul 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
Regeneration (palingenesia) is a Biblical word (Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23), which means it is not unnecessary, right?

Yeah, you are right. Nothing wrong with the word ...

1 Peter 1:23 uses another word (anagennaõ). Is it referring to the same thing as "palingenesia" in Titus 3:5 ?

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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