what is WOF???

billiefan2000 said:

TD Jakes

Juanita Bynum

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These two are NOT Word-Faith.

billiefan2000 said:

Benny Hinn

Paul Crouch

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I seriously doubt that these two consider themselves Word-Faith. Hinn renounced this during the CRI "let's beat up on Benny Hinn" period.

billiefan2000 said:

Robert Robo-Bob Tilton

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Seems that WoF critics love to throw in Tilton even though most WoFers do not associate him. He might consider himself WoF, but no one in the WoF considers him a mouthpiece for the movement. However I am sure you knew that and could care less since your post was primarily meant to FLAME

billiefan2000 said:

that is WOF is (or there mouthpieces) and what the WOF is a Fradudelent Theology that cares more about making money than preaching the gospel.

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And I'm sure that you have been sent as a prophet to forewarn the world against them, correct? You have the gift of discernment and you know all truth, am I right?

billiefan2000 said:

Watch these guys on tv and notice how they mention Jesus or Slavation. That is a clue to tell you they are Word of Faith and dont care at all about saving souls.

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So, give us some statistics: How many souls have you won to Christ in the past four years?

that is WOF is (or there mouthpieces) and what the WOF is a Fradudelent Theology that cares more about making money than preaching the gospel.

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Watch these guys on tv and notice how they mention Jesus or Slavation. That is a clue to tell you they are Word of Faith and dont care at all about saving souls.

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A pitiful and inflammatory post, billiefan2000.

You must do better than that.

[b said:

billiefan2000[/b]]
that is WOF is (or there mouthpieces) and what the WOF is a Fradudelent Theology that cares more about making money than preaching the gospel.

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[b said:

billiefan2000[/b]]
Watch these guys on tv and notice how they mention Jesus or Slavation. That is a clue to tell you they are Word of Faith and dont care at all about saving souls.

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A pitiful and inflammatory post, billiefan2000.

You must do better than that.

victoryword said:

You are doing one of three things:
1. You are asking a sincere question. If this is true then phrase your question better and in a less insulting way.
2. You have not followed along in this whole conversation and you therefore misunderstanding my post. Resolution to this is obvious. Read the posts and you'll know that I am not saying what you imply. This keeps me from having to re-explain what I have already said in previous posts.
3. You are making an insincere attack and criticism upon my post in a form of a question.

I have never said that there is faith for one ailment and not for another. Faith in God and His Word will accomplish anything that God has said can be accomplished and can appropriate any promise that God has made, including healing, for any part of one's body.

Along with faith one must also have patience. If one is able to believe God for a promise one might find themselves tested on that. One must then ask if they are able to tolerate the test. I felt the ability to endure the pain of a headache or a broken ankle to experience the power of God. Due to the excruciating pain inflicted from a toothache, I decided that I would rather relieve it quickly.

It has nothing to do with whether faith will work for one or the other, it had to do with whether or not I was willing to stand in faith for one or the other. I felt that my honest testimony in this area would help others to be free. Instead it just incurred further criticism (unless I am misunderstanding your post. If I am then please refere to point 1 above).

Is there not a place for honesty without having to be misunderstood? Do our critics always have to look for that needle in a haystack?

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Hi victoryword,
NO... please understand, I am in not way criticising or questioning or even considering insulting you or anyone else! I was merely restating what I thought what being said and asking for clarification!
Peace!

I believe you reAsonX. However, it would help to rephrase your question in a way that reflects your true intents. It's just that many people who question Faith Teaching already have their mind made up that we are wrong and no matter what we say to clarify our position, we're still wrong.

My apologies for my harshness in my earlier post.

I was once witch-hunted out of a church years ago because it was "found out" I listened to Kenneth Copeland and I spoke in tongues! Burned many a midnight oil in meetings with these people, that sound just like this thread.

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Yeah my pastor was kicked out of his traditional church after he was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. *LOL

Doesnt all this make the Christian life all the more exciting?! when you cause some damage in the kingdom of darkness! *L

i have heard of some people being told to stop medications or medical treatments and stuff like that, because, oh, they've been prayed over, and if they dont stop that medication, it shows they dont have faith, and they wont receive healing... so then that person, who has not gotten an "inward" revelation of their healing, walks around feeling condemned, by the people at church saying they lack faith, being no longer accepted as being a brother or sister, etc etc etc...

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LynneClomina,

Yes I have heard of that too, but it certainly is not taught by Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland or any WOF teachers that I know of. I have read many of Hagin's book and read Copeland's magazines but have never one time heard them advocating that. In fact, I have heard them calling that stupidity and foolishness.

We can only throw our medication into the bin when we have had a personal revelation from God that we really do not need it anymore. Until then, we'd better keep on taking the medication or we are gonna get worse or die! What's happening is that a lot of people are trying to 'copy' what others have done without their own personal revelation.

(SIGH) OK this has really gone nuts, I'm sorry if people seem to think I implied WOF's aren't Christians... that's not the case... well it may be but it's a personal issue... if they have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, and done what Romans 10 says, along with living a life of repentance, then I guess the rest are details. However, my gripe is the fact that the exposition of Scripture is not 100% - usually very close but not spot on.

Do you guys who are WOF believe that Messrs Hinn and Howard-Browne are great men of God and leaders in your denomination?? I know about the whole "baby with the bathwater" argument and I will admit that Copeland has some good points (not many but he has said some good things before). However, and in no way am I incriminating anyone in particular, wasn't also the devil capable of knowing Scripture? He is capable of counterfeit... and that goes for all of the church... Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, Anglican/Episcipolian, Uniting/Methodist... whatever, counterfeits exist sadly.

Lynne... the Word of God is NOT just for the enemy... the Bible also tells us that we use the Word to examine ourselves... it divides between soul and spirit... if we are wrong then we need to test ourselves against God's holy word. It's not because we're enemy but because we have to present ourselves holy and blameless (which OF COURSE JESUS died for but we need to TAKE UP OUR CROSS).

Wooing vs crusade... well I really doubt Apologetic is launching a crusade against non-Christians here... and what's the barometer of being effective? A full house? And wooing has bad overtones... I realise what you're trying to say Lynne but what happens when suffering sets in and the nice cushy Christian life that we wooed the lost into has evaporated... where does that leave them... this is how we get so many backsliders... And on the wooing thing, I doubt that you can call persecuted church evangelism as WOOING... at least by Western Christianity standards... and the Chinese church grows by 20000 a week - THAT's EFFECTIVE.

On prosperity vs suffering... sorry guys but I can't buy it... why would we be spared from suffering when Jesus suffered, and He said "If they persecute me they will persecute you" and don't tell me that what we are doing is persecution... I'm talking real suffering, death, sicknesses, etc... we cannot compare apples with oranges.

Guys, I really pray we all learn to interpret the Word of God as God would have us interpret it. If we are wrong then may we learn the truth. ANY OF US. Blessings everyone, LET's GO GET THE LOST!

LivingWorship...

Thanks for the comments and clarification LW.
I guess you just got caught like some others who pop in here and proceed to remonstrate WOF teachings.... when perhaps they do not actually know what WOF teaches. Imagine my joining a Lutheran Discussion and complaining about their rejection of the trinity... only to find out they in fact do believe in the trinity and I was wrong in my accusations.
This is very much like what happened to you. You mentioned in your first post that WOF taught that Jesus died spiritually and was spiritually dead during His ministry. I know of no WOF teaching who has ever taught this. We do teach that Jesus became one with us and was made sin for us in the Garden. So I have to wonder if you just picked up something from a heresy hunter site and came here to parrot it. In the end it makes you look bad because it appears you did not do your homeword, and it makes us look bad because someone (like yourself) might read your false statements and repeat them, thereby perpetuating the wild stories and lies.

Wow Living Worship!

If you ever move to my city would you please join my church,

\o/

Thanks for the compliment Jim B! Reckon you could handle an guitar-playing Aussie who loves the Lord

Diddy, if you want to call apologetics heresy hunting you're welcome to... but I have heared on TV programs Copeland, Hinn and co also say that Jesus died spiritually, I don't know if every WOFer thinks this way and nor would I suggest it, but it seems apparent that some if not all of the WOF leaders preach this doctrine which appears nothing but erroneous... and no offense to anyone on this forum but the argument that supports this doctrine is FAR from convincing... again not all WOFers believe Jesus went to hell but once again Copeland and co have said it publicly.

Blessing y'all! Who's seen PASSION yet... GO SEE IT, it will change your perception of the crucifixion forever! Never cried so much or been so thankful in my life I think!

LivingWorship said:

(SIGH) OK this has really gone nuts, I'm sorry if people seem to think I implied WOF's aren't Christians... that's not the case... well it may be but it's a personal issue...

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Do you really believe, in your 'personal' opinion, that all Word of faith adherents are not Christians? If you even suspect it, then it's hardly a 'personal issue' you can shut away.

if they have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, and done what Romans 10 says, along with living a life of repentance, then I guess the rest are details.

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And you are in some doubt as to whether Word of Faith Christians have done this?

However, my gripe is the fact that the exposition of Scripture is not 100% - usually very close but not spot on.

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And yours is? I'm sure mine isn't. I read Grudem, but reject Calvinism. I read Rodman Williams, but reject replacement theology. I read Pawson, but reject his eschatology... And so it goes on. I don't think anyone has got the whole truth. I would agree with you that Word of Faith exegetes a rather sloppy at times. Nevertheless, I know nothing of any 100% fullproof interpretive system.

Do you guys who are WOF believe that Messrs Hinn and Howard-Browne are great men of God and leaders in your denomination??

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As far as I know, Hinn is respected by many WoF believers, but not regarded as a leading teacher. victoryword may be able to help you there.

I know about the whole "baby with the bathwater" argument and I will admit that Copeland has some good points

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How nice.

However, and in no way am I incriminating anyone in particular, wasn't also the devil capable of knowing Scripture? He is capable of counterfeit... and that goes for all of the church... Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, Anglican/Episcipolian, Uniting/Methodist... whatever, counterfeits exist sadly.

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Yes, they do. And some of them are completely 'orthodox', which perhaps makes them all the more deadly.

On prosperity vs suffering... sorry guys but I can't buy it... why would we be spared from suffering when Jesus suffered, and He said "If they persecute me they will persecute you" and don't tell me that what we are doing is persecution... I'm talking real suffering, death, sicknesses, etc... we cannot compare apples with oranges.

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How putting up with the flu translates itself into "suffering for Jesus sake" is beyond me. One might claim some personal, spiritual refinement out of a prolonged sickness (a point of some contention), but even this hardly constitutes persecution. In the majority of cases, it would do the body of Christ more good if the sick Christians would rise and be healed - then there wouldn't be so much for everyone else to do! And a little prosperity, when handled unselfishly, isn't a bad thing either. Altruistic Christians who can take care of their families and still have something to give to the rest of the world are invaluable assets in God's kingdom.

Unfortunately, the Church prefers to Christianise what it doesn't want to face up to. We have a history of it. It is easier to wave a theological wand and sanctify our problems than it is to rise up in faith and contend with them.

LET's GO GET THE LOST!

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With bodies so sick we can't stand to preach? With bank accounts so broke we can't afford to leave our little homes? 'I'm sorry, old chap, but I'm just too busy suffering for Jesus to go and preach the gospel at the moment... check on me later, when I've lost a few more teeth and I'm spitting blood. Maybe then I'll be spiritual enough' .

Actually, I believe in the sanctifying power of suffering. I believe in bearing the cross. But we need to teach scriptural definitions of suffering. Opening our arms to embrace whatever Satan, man or mother nature wish to dump into our laps strikes me as shere foolishness and an insult to our heavenly Father.

All for now.

Theophilus7 said:

With bodies so sick we can't stand to preach? With bank accounts so broke we can't afford to leave our little homes? 'I'm sorry, old chap, but I'm just too busy suffering for Jesus to go and preach the gospel at the moment... check on me later, when I've lost a few more teeth and I'm spitting blood. Maybe then I'll be spiritual enough' .

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Very well said!

If I am broke, I can't help others.
If I am sick, I don't have energy to do His will.
If I am depressed (because I am broke and sick!!), my soul is not prospering.

Sure! Even if I am prospering, and in health, even as my soul prospers, there WILL be persecutions and suffering - the Word says so. But it is the WORD that tests my faith, NOT my being sick, broke and depressed. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word.

Our persecution and suffering is to resist the lure of the evil one...to resist temptation, in its many forms.

OK everyone has made some very good and clear points but I think we have too Western a mindset (myself included) to fully appreciate what persecution really does, and like I said, I won't call persecution being rejected for the gospel or things that we might consider to be "suffering". We live in the lap of luxury, and we are among the 10% richest in the world (it goes something like this, if you have a roof over your head, steady job, car, etc.. then you're in that bracket) so for us to suggest that we suffer 'persecution' or suffer for the gospel is a little rich at times. We are not immune to the attack of the enemy, no question . But we who have so much material wealth in the Western World forget that people have lived in poverty before and they will after we've been and gone. God doesn't want to see His people suffer but at the same time we (or at least we should) learn to trust God... when you have nothing else to stand on, God is there and when we 'suffer' we realise the God hasn't abandoned us. Think of the footprints in the sand story.

RubyRose said:

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If I am broke, I can't help others.
If I am sick, I don't have energy to do His will.
If I am depressed (because I am broke and sick!!), my soul is not prospering.

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Well if I am broke I may not be able to buy something or give money or whatever... but I can still give the Word which doesn't depend on my finance and after all is the one thing we are called to do... we can be very effective witnesses for Christ when we are sufering. It's not a hard and fast rule, and it's not to suggest that riches prevent you from witnessing but when people see a Christian suffer, and yet suffer with the peace of God pervading them, people will be drawn to that and desire that peace...

If I am sick I can still rejoice... and this may not mean I jump around singing undiginified or some hip praise song, I'm talking that joy of GOd, that peace passing all understanding... to get excited in church is easy and to an extent shallow, because many of us don't get excited outside of that... but moreso many don't experience the joy of the Lord at all times, when we should! It is available at all times to us, this is a BLESSING we can tap into that we often forget! Lord start with me!

Depressed... well easy state to reach but I guess we need to remember that all of this life is temporary and we can't take our riches to heaven - any more than we also leave our pains and sufferings behind. I wouldn't be the most excitable person in this situation, granted. It's hard to be. But as I said before we need the joy of the Lord to be our strength in troubled times like this. And another thing... we need to remember to be gracious and thank God in all circumstances... I suspect this may make us more humble and realise that these "afflictions" are not times to fall from God and to get depressed but to stop and realise that He is sovereign, and if He brings us to a point of trial then He will be faithful and get us through the trial. That encourages me... hope it does likewise to all of us.

Ruby I'm not attacking you, WE ALL THINK THIS WAY but we forget that so many of our persecuted bretheren are facing this issue day in day out. If they had the same attitude we do in Australia, America, Britain, wherever... then we would not be seeing the absolutely huge revivals that have swept that part of the world. They are broke, many of them are sick (I doubt depressed because they know this life is TEMPORAL) yet there are ridiculous numbers of people getting saved by these broke, sick, tortured people.

God bless you all... may the Lord extend your influence and mission field, and may we all continue to faithfully serve God irrespective of denomination, colour, creed or wealth! Praise Him!

Hello LivingWorship,

Thanks for writing. I believe you are a sincere Christian and I commend you for encouraging us to love God with all we are and all we have.

Nevertheless, we must cross theological swords once again. I shall be brief. The problem in both camps, yours and the Word of Faith teachers', is viewing the Bible through polarised glasses. Using a selective hermeneutic, the Christian life can be interpreted as one of constant health, wealth, power and success, or suffering, sorrow, persecution and pain. There are scriptures and examples of all these sorts of things in the Bible. A biblical theology, however, needs to interpret the Bible wholistically.

Let's take a look at Hebrews 11. In the first half we see a great deal of the kind of thing Word of Faith teachers love; blessings, resurrections, deliverances, victory over enemies. Great stuff! But then there are the passages that you prefer - the faith that endures suffering, torture, deprivation and discomfort. Both of these kinds of experiences are presented in Hebrews 11 as part of the life of faith.

Unfortunately, we all get out of balance very easily. The Word of Faith teachers tend to downplay or ignore the passages that talk about suffering, hardships and privations. They have seen that God is a good God, that He gets glory when people are healed and blessed, that the body of Christ should be a victorious, overcoming body of Spirit-empowered men and women, that the kingdom manifests itself in healing and prosperity... but they are so caught up with these truths that they are sometimes blinded to the other side of Christianity; the crosses, the sacrifices, the cost of discipleship. It is a natural human failing. Martin Luther was so fired up on "justification by faith" that he failed to see the counter-balancing wisdom in the book of James on works. He dismissed the whole letter as "a right strawy epistle"! At least the Word of Faith teachers don't go so far as to deny the inspiration of parts of the Bible!

Do you see the danger? Our own prejudices, our experiences, our cultural background, our theological and philosophical glasses, all play a heavy hand in how we read the Bible, tending to produce different emphases in different people groups. We need each other's experiences and insights if we are going to find the balance! Unfortunately, most of us lack charity. The Word of Faith teachers can only see a pitiful, powerlessness in the 'suffering testimonies' of their fellow Christians. "These people should be overcoming!", they complain. "If they just had more 'revelation knowledge'...!" "If only these people would start walking in Abraham's blessing!" Some Word of Faith teachers have even denied that anyone need suffer martyrdom, claiming that 'it's your choice'. On the other hand, traditional evangelicals decry the Word of Faith emphasis on healing, prosperity and success as a "crossless" and "costless" gospel, extolling the virtues of submissive suffering and preferring the testimonies of pain and endurance. They would rather hear about someone bearing a sickness with stoichal fortitude than someone actually getting healed through the prayer of faith.

And so the Church that loves power and the Church that worships pain mock and pitty and generally assert their superiority over one another, but never get together to become the balanced, spirit-filled, cross-bearing body of Christ, a blessing to one another, a blessing to the world, and willing to go through anything and be emptied completely, just to fill someone else up and fulfill their biblical mandates.

I pray that this may change.

God bless.

Hey Theo

Have you ever read Ken Hagin's book on suffering? I forget the exact title but the whole book deals with the subject of suffering.

Gordon Lindsay also had a little book on suffering (I also forget its title). Just curious as to whether or not you have read either or both of these.

victoryword said:

Hey Theo

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Hiya. It's been a while.

Have you ever read Ken Hagin's book on suffering? I forget the exact title but the whole book deals with the subject of suffering.

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The title is "Must Christians Suffer". Yes, I read that book about a year or two ago. It helped preserve my respect in Hagin - that along with "The Midas Touch", which I read maybe three years back. I figured that, whatever his theological shortcomings, Hagin was endeavouring to face up to the whole New Testament, not just the bits he liked, and that he cared about the people he ministered to and wasn't simply telling them what they wanted to hear for the sake of popularity.

Gordon Lindsay also had a little book on suffering (I also forget its title). Just curious as to whether or not you have read either or both of these.

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Nope. Haven't ready any Gordon Lindsay at all.