What is with all the hate on Ellena White

Dasdream · Oct 29, 2006

What do you want me to say? "Oh you are right Ellen was not used by God but by Satan to mislead people" Boy please, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. I made this thread and I have yet to see why you dislike her so much. For the love of pete how many times do I have to say that she is not perfect???? She never said to leave the SDA church, She never said that the SDA religion is false, she never said that God is not a real God. She never said anything that went against our religion or 100% against the Bible, actually she never said anything that went against the Bible either, she just used the wrong words, that is all. I have never read her books, but I am defending her, because I will go through the same crap when my book comes out. To me, my book is fine, but as always someone will criticize the words I used to get my point across, then the actual point!

and yes I do feel you are wrong in finding the faults and making someone look like an angel of satan. I don't follow peoples mistakes, we all know her mistakes, but noone follows those, atleast I should hope not. If someone was beleivng her mistakes, than I would understand all your posts, but nobody here has said that.

You found a few of her mistakes and you have let people know about it. Big wup, my exes do that all the time, but what are you going to do now? You want the SDA church to remove all of her books over a few mistakes? Not one pastor has preached on her mistakes, they have even admitted to them, but the keep reading her books, because the rest is good.you read carefully I have answered your remarks, not directly but if you read you wouldn't continue to make such rude and disrespectful remarks towards her.

Sunrunner · Oct 29, 2006

woobadooba said:
What makes you think I don't have the truth?

Read what I said again. "Whatever that may be" is what I said.

woobadooba · Oct 29, 2006

Sunrunner said:
Read what I said again. "Whatever that may be" is what I said.

You implied that I don't have the truth on the issue of Ellen White's prophetic role in our church, but that you have it.

I simply suggested that you take what I had said into greater consideration, rather than to quickly disregard it as error simply because it doesn't agree with what you've been taught.

How much time have you really spent testing her writings? It seems to me that you don't want to face the facts. I was like this too when I first became an SDA. I absolutely refused to believe that we could be wrong about anything. Of course, I later realised that even though we have more light than every other denomination, we are still imperfect.

My objective here is not to make this a personal issue, but to address the facts, and take an honest look at the evidence.

The evidence discloses that she misinterpreted the scriptures on certain matters, while claiming to be inspired to render such interpretations.

With that said, how then can we agree that she was a prophet of God when some of the things that she taught do not agree with the holy scriptures?

Dasdream · Oct 29, 2006

We all know our religion is not perfect, we all know that she was not perfect and we all know that we are not perect, which is why we can't understand why you are attacking her so much based on her imperfections.

Sophia7 · Oct 30, 2006

This thread has been edited to remove personal insults/flames. We are reopening it, and we welcome discussion and debate, as long as you keep it civil. Please keep in mind Rule 2.1:

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You are welcome to state your beliefs and disagree with others, but please do not insult them personally or call into question their faith or Christianity.

woobadooba · Oct 30, 2006

Dasdream said:
We all know our religion is not perfect, we all know that she was not perfect and we all know that we are not perect, which is why we can't understand why you are attacking her so much based on her imperfections.

No one here is attacking her imperfections. To the contrary, her teachings are being tested by the word of God. We have been instructed to do this. 1Jn. 4:1

Jimlarmore · Oct 30, 2006

EG White haters kind of remind me of the lesson I was taught a long time ago. My teacher pulled out a piece of paper and made a dot with an ink pen on the page. She asked what we saw. A dot everyone replied. Well, she said, didn't anyone notice the entire rest of the page being perfectly white?

I know Sister White made some mistakes but look at all the good she has done. I haven't researched the ones that most of the formers scream about so much and I have intentionally not done that for this reason. I have read the Great Controversy and the Desire of Ages. These two books changed my life and I know the Holy Spirit was on this woman's life when she wrote these books.

Now when we are dealing with the truth of God we need to be very careful. I would be among the first to point out that the enemy of our souls is a master at placing a little bit of deception in with a lot of truth and leading many astray from the truth in the Bible. The problem is that I can't find where Sister White's writings have done that, not yet anyway. So , I am asking anyone who has fully investigated the wrongs or misinterpretations of the Bible that Sister White has done to please list them so I can check them out.

Thanks in Advance

God Bless
Jim Larmore

woobadooba · Oct 30, 2006

Jimlarmore said:
So , I am asking anyone who has fully investigated the wrongs or misinterpretations of the Bible that Sister White has done to please list them so I can check them out.

See post #24 for two very obvious misinterpretations.

By the way, I don't hate Ellen White. I just don't agree that she was a prophet of God. For, unless someone can show me that prophets can misinterpret the scriptures while declaring their interpretations to be inspired and still be genuine prophets of God, I can't accept the idea that Ellen White had the prophetic gift.

Jimlarmore · Oct 30, 2006

woobadooba said:
See post #24 for two very obvious misinterpretations.

By the way, I don't hate Ellen White. I just don't agree that she was a prophet of God. For, unless someone can show me that prophets can misinterpret the scriptures while declaring their interpretations to be inspired and still be genuine prophets of God, I can't accept the idea that Ellen White had the prophetic gift.

Thankyou Woobadooba,
I'll read that post and get back with you.

God bless
Jim Larmore

Dasdream · Oct 30, 2006

woobadooba said:
No one here is attacking her imperfections. To the contrary, her teachings are being tested by the word of God. We have been instructed to do this. 1Jn. 4:1

Ok you have tested her alright, but you didn't stop there. You are calling her a lair and saying she does not have the spirit of the lord in her and you say she is not a prophet, because of a few mistakes and in your opinion a prophet should be perfect and have a perfect understanding of the Bible. Truth is Noone will truly understand the Bible 100%, but you saying she is not a prophet becuse of her mistakes is like someone going up to you and saying you are not a Christian because of this and this and this.

1 John 4:1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I can see your point, but that verse does not say to convince everyone and falsy accuse them of not being used by God. I understand your point and why you stand by it, but that verse is for people who are purposly making mistakes. Ellen is dead therefore we can't go up to her and ask her if she did it accidently or purposly. When my book comes out, people willl go up to me and ask me if I wrote a few things incorrectly or misunderstood them. If they prove to me that I made a mistake then I will admit it, apologize and re-write it. The only book that is perfect is the Bible. Since Ellen is no longer alive we can't go up to her and ask her if she knew about the mistakes. if she said yes, then you win! You are right! But she is dead, so we have no way of kniwng if she knew about the mistakes.

If a man walked up to you in the street and said he was a porphet, then by all means test him, like the verse says, but like i said no book other then the Bible is perfect and since the auther is no longer alive, you are testing a brick wall, you are getting nothing back. You want to put her in the "hotseat", except you aren't putting her in the hotseat, you are putting her book on the hotseat. You want to test her Christianity, but instead you are testing her book. No book is perfect. if you really want to "test her spirit" You need to talk with her and get into her head , but the bookwill get you nowhere, because we don't know if she purposly made the mistake or not. I hope you can see where I am coming from.

Once again in your opinion you feel that a prophet should be perfect, but who said they had to be?

Jimlarmore · Oct 30, 2006

woobadooba said:
I think 'hate' is too strong a word to use here in describing what people really feel about her.

You need to understand that many people have abused the writings of Ellen White, thus using them as a means to control, demean, and condemn others. Those who are crying out against her writings have been hurt, and are obviously very angry as a result of this, especially since they're now discovering that the things that they have been condemned for are either no longer applicable to the times in which we live, are not even Biblical, or both.

I think I am beginning to understand where you are coming from here. I may be off base here but it seems you or someone you love may have been the victim of over critical church members trying to whip you back into shape according to what they believe you should be. They have used Sister White's writings to do the whipping. If this has been the case may I be the first to tell you they were wrong no matter how well intentioned they were. Let me ask you this would you have felt any better if they used the Bible only to try to invalidate you or whip you into shape? Please know and realize that Jesus knows your heart and loves you with an immeasurable love. Don't let the ones who put you down in your church drive you away from the church. The truth be known they probably have just as many things wrong with them as you do. They just don't let everyone see them as much maybe. That to me makes you the more honest possibly.

This has led me to a very serious fork in the road, so to speak. I'm still trying to reconcile how a prophet of God could identify a teaching as being inspired by God while it's clearly something that doesn't agree with what the Holy Scriptures say.

For example, in Christ's Object Lessons Ellen White declares, "The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world." Now how could she get away with doing this? Christ was very explicit about what He meant. Who gave her the authority to alter what He had said, and thus attribute meaning to it that He had never expressed?

Do you remember the incident in the Bible when Jesus talked to a young man who wanted to become a disciple but wanted to go and bury his relatives first? Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead." This sort of bothered me for a while until I understood that Christ saw the lost as spiritually dead. Once we are made alive in Christ and remain that way we can never die. We may sleep but that is a temporary condition until the resurrection.

Now what does this have to do with the statement above? In Matt 13 where the parable of the sower is We see that the Lord explains the various aspects of the parable and when He said, "The field is the world" and the gospel must be preached in all the world and to everyone before the end comes, Matt 28:19-20. Jesus died for every single man woman and child in this world and they are all eligable for salvation. However those who refuse or are dead spiritually are outside of the church of God. I think Sister White must have meant this when she said the world is the church of God. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Another example is when she interprets Zech 13:6 as referring to Christ. It is evident from the context of this passage that this is not a reference to the Messiah.

I have to respectfully disagree. The context here is very apocalyptic in nature and speaks of the time when the wicked shall be destroyed. In Zech 12:10 we see the allusion to the messiah in the wording "And they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced". This is not the only messianic allusion. In Zech 13:7 the saying of striking the shepard and the sheep will be scattered is an allusion to the messiah's arrest just before His crucifixtion when the disciples ran away. Zech 14:4 speaks of the place the Lords feet will touch down when the new Jerusalem comes down from God our of heaven. Zech 14:6-9 speaks of a time after the millenium when the Lord will create all things new. This all fits perfectly well with her statement claiming the Lord's saying the wounds in His hands were received in the house of His friends is indeed the messiah. Can you please describe why this is not so or where I am going wrong here?

This is a very serious matter. Do we just ignore this, and thus pretend that it isn't there? Do we try to cover it up? This seems to be what is happening. And this really bothers me, because it speaks of a church leadership that isn't willing to grow in the knowledge of truth, or admit to being wrong about anything. It is a movement which suggests that it has arrived, and that everything that is in opposition to it is not of God.

If what you say is true I would agree whole heartedly but I have already shown that at least in my humble opinion the context in the scripture around Zech 13:6 does indeed fit the scriptural reference that verse 6 is referring to the messiah because there were so many other surrounding texts that were messianic in nature.

As a result of this I'm not sure at this point that I can remain an SDA. I've been an SDA for about ten years now, and feel like I've been lied to. This really bothers me! And I want answers!

Please prayerfully consider what you are saying here. The devil will try anything to discourage you. If the writings of Sister White is something you can't embrace then don't. She never said we should take her work over the Bible. Stay just with the Bible from now on and don't pay any attention to critical members who throw stones.

Please Note: for those who are also searching for answers, don't just rule something out as being false until you study it out for yourself and discover it to be false. At this point I really don't know what to believe about Ellen White in terms of her prophetic role. I do know one thing however, it is evident to me that she was a godly woman, and has shared wonderful truths throughout her writings that have changed the lives of many people in a miraculous way in bringing them closer to God. No devil could do such a thing. So I do believe that she was a godly woman.

The one who is open-minded about these things and serious about wanting to find the truth will always remember to ask for references to investigate ideas in context. Here is a link to the writings of Ellen White: http://www.gilead.net/egw/index.htm

Amen and I think we should all keep an open mind. I don't think Ellen White was perfect. She was human like us all and made mistakes but she was filled with the Holy Spirit and that I am totally convinced. If you don't consider her a prophet of God thats ok I think. Just stay with the Bible and the Lord will lead you.

God Bless you

Jim Larmore

woobadooba · Oct 30, 2006

Jimlarmore said:
Do you remember the incident in the Bible when Jesus talked to a young man who wanted to become a disciple but wanted to go and bury his relatives first? Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead." This sort of bothered me for a while until I understood that Christ saw the lost as spiritually dead. Once we are made alive in Christ and remain that way we can never die. We may sleep but that is a temporary condition until the resurrection.

Now what does this have to do with the statement above? In Matt 13 where the parable of the sower is We see that the Lord explains the various aspects of the parable and when He said, "The field is the world" and the gospel must be preached in all the world and to everyone before the end comes, Matt 28:19-20. Jesus died for every single man woman and child in this world and they are all eligable for salvation. However those who refuse or are dead spiritually are outside of the church of God. I think Sister White must have meant this when she said the world is the church of God. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

The problem though, is that Jesus had said that the "field is the world". He was very clear about this. Yet, Ellen White never said the field is the church, but that it is the church in the world. This is a complete contradiction to what Jesus had said.

Jesus' point was that the world would come under God's judgment, and the wicked would be separated from the righteous by eternal fire. He was not speaking of the church here. Ellen White superimposed meaning on this passage that Jesus clearly did not intend to convey. She also did this with Zech. 13:6, as I will soon show you...

I have to respectfully disagree. The context here is very apocalyptic in nature and speaks of the time when the wicked shall be destroyed. In Zech 12:10 we see the allusion to the messiah in the wording "And they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced". This is not the only messianic allusion. In Zech 13:7 the saying of striking the shepard and the sheep will be scattered is an allusion to the messiah's arrest just before His crucifixtion when the disciples ran away. Zech 14:4 speaks of the place the Lords feet will touch down when the new Jerusalem comes down from God our of heaven. Zech 14:6-9 speaks of a time after the millenium when the Lord will create all things new. This all fits perfectly well with her statement claiming the Lord's saying the wounds in His hands were received in the house of His friends is indeed the messiah. Can you please describe why this is not so or where I am going wrong here?

But let's look at what the passage really says:

Now then, the KJV is not the most accurate translation. However, the NRSV is actually considered to be more accurate.

Let's look at what each one says:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."(Zec 13:4-6 KJV)

Notice how it speaks of prophets (plural).

Now, look at this:

"On that day the prophets will be ashamed, every one, of their visions when they prophesy; they will not put on a hairy mantle in order to deceive, but each of them will say, "I am no prophet, I am a tiller of the soil; for the land has been my possession since my youth." And if anyone asks them, "What are these wounds on your chest?" the answer will be "The wounds I received in the house of my friends." (Zec 13:4-6 NRSV)

Now do you see the problem that you run into by assuming that this is speaking of one person (Jesus Christ) as having wounds? Truth is, it is referring to the wounds of the prophets. Hence, the reason for the usage of the pronoun "them", as in, "but each of them will say..."

And this is the proper way to look at this passage since more than one person is being referred to according to the context of it.

Incidentally, the "wounds" are noted in the NRSV as being on the chest, not in the hands.

So yes, Ellen White's interpretation of this passage is not correct. In fact, she even superimposes meaning on this passage by manner of implication that denotes another idea that the context does not support. When she speaks of this passage as referring to Jesus, she does it within the context of the questioner being in heaven asking Him where He got His wounds. Thus she inculcates the idea that there will be people in heaven who never knew Jesus. But this is not what this passage is saying to us; rather, this is what Ellen White is implying, and she was obviously wrong, because the passage itself is speaking of wounded prophets, not of a scarred Messiah.

Dasdream · Oct 30, 2006

ok you have just proven that not all Bible say exactly the same thing, so who's to say she had the exact same Bible version that you have today? I have about 6 versions of the Bible I will check the verses you have pointed out and see if they all say the same EXACT thing

woobadooba · Oct 30, 2006

Dasdream said:
ok you have just proven that not all Bible say exactly the same thing, so who's to say she had the exact same Bible version that you have today? I have about 6 versions of the Bible I will check the verses you have pointed out and see if they all say the same EXACT thing

A close reading will show you that they do say the same thing. They are just worded differently. One is just simply worded better than the other in bringing out the true idea of the passage.

By the way, if she really was a prophet of God she would have had no problem identifying the true meaning of the passage, since God would have revealed it to her. After all, she did claim that everything she wrote was inspired by God.

Sunrunner · Oct 30, 2006

woobadooba said:
A close reading will show you that they do say the same thing. They are just worded differently. One is just simply worded better than the other in bringing out the true idea of the passage.

By the way, if she really was a prophet of God she would have had no problem identifying the true meaning of the passage, since God would have revealed it to her. After all, she did claim that everything she wrote was inspired by God.

Actually she said that her counsels and the Testimonies were inspired by God.

In other places she recognized that some of things she wrote were not of divine revelation (for example, the "40 Rooms mistake" where someone gave her bad info).

woobadooba · Oct 30, 2006

Sunrunner said:
Actually she said that her counsels and the Testimonies were inspired by God.

In other places she recognized that some of things she wrote were not of divine revelation (for example, the "40 Rooms mistake" where someone gave her bad info).

Can you provide me with proof to support these claims?

And when you get a chance, read post #10 here: http://www.christianforums.com/t3704722-ellen-white-and-inspiration.html

Jimlarmore · Oct 31, 2006

Woobadooba,
The original language gives this " And one shall say to him what are wounds these between your hands and he shall say with those which I was struck in the house of me love." Theres nothing here to indicate the wounds were received in the chest in the Hebrew. As far as the rest of your post I will not comment on it further other than the councel I gave you yesterday and that is if you don't want to accept Ellen White then don't. Stay with the Bible and the Bible only. All this bickering back and forth just causes a climate of unrest and hate between brothers and sisters. This hostile debating is the work of satan. Think about how you feel right now and see if what I am saying is not true. Anger and strife over the word of God is not what He wants. This type of dialogue does not glorify the Lord at all. If we reply in a mood of pride and arrogance then we are not learning anything but how to insult and put our brother or sister down. Is that really what we should be all about here?

I love you all and I don't want to see this controversial dialogue going on here. I have done this before many many times and it's not productive at all.

God bless
Jim Larmore

woobadooba · Oct 31, 2006

Jimlarmore said:
Woobadooba,
The original language gives this " And one shall say to him what are wounds these between your hands and he shall say with those which I was struck in the house of me love." Theres nothing here to indicate the wounds were received in the chest in the Hebrew. As far as the rest of your post I will not comment on it further other than the councel I gave you yesterday and that is if you don't want to accept Ellen White then don't. Stay with the Bible and the Bible only. All this bickering back and forth just causes a climate of unrest and hate between brothers and sisters. This hostile debating is the work of satan. Think about how you feel right now and see if what I am saying is not true. Anger and strife over the word of God is not what He wants. This type of dialogue does not glorify the Lord at all. If we reply in a mood of pride and arrogance then we are not learning anything but how to insult and put our brother or sister down. Is that really what we should be all about here?

I love you all and I don't want to see this controversial dialogue going on here. I have done this before many many times and it's not productive at all.

God bless
Jim Larmore

Unfortunately, I have forgotten my Hebrew. So when it comes to addressing the original language in detail I can't do that at this time.

Perhaps someone who knows it well could shed some light on this. I will say this however, people often use the voice of the original as an anchor to validate their claims. This ought to motivate us to learn Hebrew and Greek. I think I will go back to studying these again.

Nevertheless, the context suggests that the one who is being questioned is one of the prophets, not the Messiah. Evidentally the translators saw this too. But that's all I can really say about this.

Jimlarmore · Oct 31, 2006

woobadooba said:
Unfortunately, I have forgotten my Hebrew. So when it comes to addressing the original language in detail I can't do that at this time.

Actually all it takes is buying an interlinear Bible and a strongs exhaustive concordance ( approx a hundred bucks for both) . Those are the only two tools you'll need. If you want to actually learn the Hebrew then you would need to buy a lexicon as well but the interlinear has the original language with the meaning of each word above or below it. Mine is a green's which also gives the strongs concordance number above each word/s. It reads right to left for the Hebrew just as it was written.

Perhaps someone who knows it well could shed some light on this. I will say this however, people often use the voice of the original as an anchor to validate their claims. This ought to motivate us to learn Hebrew and Greek. I think I will go back to studying these again.

I like it because many times it gives me a better picture of what the author was saying than reading it in the translated versions. The syntax sometimes is a little weird to follow but a little practice and you'll do just fine.

Nevertheless, the context suggests that the one who is being questioned is one of the prophets, not the Messiah. Evidentally the translators saw this too. But that's all I can really say about this.

The messiah was referred to as a prophet in some cases. I don't have the exact verses at this present time but this particular aspect of these verses does not exclude a messianic allusion as you have suggested. The apocalyptic nature of these chapters and the other surrounding messianic allusions qualifies this to be messianic.

God bless
Jim Larmore

woobadooba · Oct 31, 2006

Jimlarmore said:
Actually all it takes is buying an interlinear Bible and a strongs exhaustive concordance ( approx a hundred bucks for both) . Those are the only two tools you'll need. If you want to actually learn the Hebrew then you would need to buy a lexicon as well but the interlinear has the original language with the meaning of each word above or below it. Mine is a green's which also gives the strongs concordance number above each word/s. It reads right to left for the Hebrew just as it was written.

I like it because many times it gives me a better picture of what the author was saying than reading it in the translated versions. The syntax sometimes is a little weird to follow but a little practice and you'll do just fine.

The messiah was referred to as a prophet in some cases. I don't have the exact verses at this present time but this particular aspect of these verses does not exclude a messianic allusion as you have suggested. The apocalyptic nature of these chapters and the other surrounding messianic allusions qualifies this to be messianic.

God bless
Jim Larmore

I'm going to take this question over to the Exposition forum. There are several people there who are fluent in the languages. When I get a response I will post it in here.

Of course, I won't say anything about Ellen White. That way I won't get a biased answer

What is with all the hate on Ellena White

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