What is unforgiveable?

[GrayArea]

Hey everyone,

I've got a few questions, or rather doubts, that i hope you all can help me through logically and morally.

Is there unforgiveable sin, if so what is it and what are the results of professing that belief?

By results, i'm looking for several things. One involving the moral and ethical implications that stem from believing in unforgiveable sin. Two being how it reflects Gods nature and finally in explaining how it holds up to reason and what we know of God.

You'll notice i didn't say anything about looking for scriptural references. This is because there are scholarly and convincing scriptural arguments for both the universalist and the traditional hell views on this topic. I have been convinced by both but can argue neither. I'm simply not scholarly enough to make choices between them.

So, your thoughts?

 

[TrueQ]

If there is some sin that is unforgivable all I can say is that I've never encountered it. Among we mortals, at least, there is no sin that will not be forgiven after an appropriate amount of repentance or revenge. That isn't to say that all sins are forgiven, sometimes pride or hatred or indifference or something like that keeps people from seeking forgiveness but, if you really wanted to, I think you could get people to forgive everything you've ever done.

That goes for we mortals, having never met any immortals, I can't speak for them. However, if you adhere to the Christian belief, Jehovah created us in his image, which seems to suggest he'll forgive in such a way as well.

 

[Sors]

I am not a Christian so correct my if I am wrong, but I believe Hebrews chapter 6 talks about a sin that is unforgivable.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Is that basically what this is talking about?

 

[Beoga]

I am not a Christian so correct my if I am wrong, but I believe Hebrews chapter 6 talks about a sin that is unforgivable.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Is that basically what this is talking about?

from my understanding, no.
blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed be a born true christian.
from my understanding, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the only sin mentioned in Scripture that is unforgivable was something committed by the pharisees during Jesus's time. Some say that it blasphemy of the HS is unbelief, but if that be the case, then no one will be saved.

 

[GrayArea]

That isn't to say that all sins are forgiven, sometimes pride or hatred or indifference or something like that keeps people from seeking forgiveness

Perhaps once we are given the understanding to know what we have done, it isn't that God that doesn't forgive us but that we are unable to forgive ourselves of that pride or indifferance we stubbornly hold on to. But that implies Christian universalism again and that all people are forgiven by God of every sin.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Is that basically what this is talking about?

That's what i presume is the stance but i'm clueless as to what that means exactly from the non-universalists perspective.

blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be committed be a born true christian.

i can see that but then who can it be commited by? Like you said, no one would be saved if non-believers were guilty of unforgiveable sin. It's our very nature to reject God. I would presume one would have to have understanding of the Spirit in order to deny it and be held accountable.

which is the only sin mentioned in Scripture that is unforgivable was something committed by the pharisees during Jesus's time

yeah, i noticed that he was speaking to His own people not to gentiles. Perhaps he was holding those who had God's guidance through the Word accountable?

It seems most reasonable that this was aimed then at either believers or served as a warning to those who on the verge of understanding so they would understand God is bigger than the law. maybe...

it's a start! =)

 

[nadroj1985]

Forgiveness is our weapon against suffering in this world, IMO. We don't have any better ones.

It would be despair to live in a world where there were actions that could not be forgiven.

 

[zoziw]

Is there unforgiveable sin, if so what is it and what are the results of professing that belief?

That is an interesting subject.

It appears, as Jesus walked around proclaiming his teachings, that unclean (evil) spirits would say "You are the Son of God" to him but the "teachers of the law" declared Jesus to be possessed by Beelzebub, which comes from Baal-zebub "the lord of the flies", which in turn was likely a deliberate distortion of "ba'al zbl" which was a Canaanite name meaning something like "lord of the divine abode" or "Baal the Prince" who was a rival to the God of Israel. By the time the Gospels rolled around the name was associated with evil forces like demons and Satan.

The verses surrounding this subject all deal with associating the works that Jesus performed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, with Beelzebub (aka the forces of evil).

Since the verses this sin is mentioned in revolve around people declaring the works they saw Jesus performed as being associated with Beelzebub, and since Jesus does not exist as a physical manifestation today, I question if it is possible to commit this sin in the present.

One involving the moral and ethical implications that stem from believing in unforgiveable sin.

There are certainly people today who believe this sin can still be committed but I need to leave that to them to answer.

Two being how it reflects Gods nature and finally in explaining how it holds up to reason and what we know of God.

Thinking back to Exodus I believe one thing we can surmise about the nature of God is that he doesn't like having his works associated with other deities. After the Israelites created the golden calf and gave it credit for bringing them out of Egypt, God made sure everyone from that generation was dead before allowing Israel to cross into the promised land.

I think what we can take from both of these texts is that the one sure way to get God angry with you is to give credit for his work to another deity.

You'll notice i didn't say anything about looking for scriptural references. This is because there are scholarly and convincing scriptural arguments for both the universalist and the traditional hell views on this topic. I have been convinced by both but can argue neither. I'm simply not scholarly enough to make choices between them.

Another possibility would be the destruction of the soul.

 

[Blackmarch]

Hey everyone,

I've got a few questions, or rather doubts, that i hope you all can help me through logically and morally.

Is there unforgiveable sin, if so what is it and what are the results of professing that belief?

By results, i'm looking for several things. One involving the moral and ethical implications that stem from believing in unforgiveable sin. Two being how it reflects Gods nature and finally in explaining how it holds up to reason and what we know of God.

You'll notice i didn't say anything about looking for scriptural references. This is because there are scholarly and convincing scriptural arguments for both the universalist and the traditional hell views on this topic. I have been convinced by both but can argue neither. I'm simply not scholarly enough to make choices between them.

So, your thoughts?

The only totally unforgiveable sins this one can find, is blasphemy against the Holy ghost and the intentional shedding of innocent blood. But, don't go out and sin just because you can repent.

 

[GMRELIC]

What is unforgiveable?

wearing white shoes after Labor Day and before Easter.

 

[shadowed_eyes]

ok, to me, an unforgivable sin is one that surpasses all thoughts or actions of mortals.

I cant say that the fal is one such example, it was the ORGINAL sin, not unforgivable. But perhaps the devil commited the unforgivable sin by rising up against God, for if that sin was truly forgivable, then God would have forgiven him surely? Instead he was cast out by him (or by the Archangel Michael) to the place we fondly call Hell.
If this is not unforgivable, then what is?

Of course, if some sin is truly unforgivable, then that means that God cannot be pictured as this all-loving, graceful, merciful God that we all know he is, therefore it could be said that there is no such thing as an unforgivable sin...

But going back to my orginal thought, Unforgivable sin is unachievable in mortals i think, because God's love saves us all, but for the demons and the devils, doesnt the mere fact that they are Demons and Devils show that they have commited what you will call the original sin?

Sorry if this hasnt helped, but its my thoughts.... and thats what you asked....

 

[Natman]

RC Sproul recently did a series on the "unforgivable sin". Based on his series, the only unforgivable sin is "blaspheme of the Holy Spirit" which, turns out to be simply denying the saving capacity of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the atonement of our sins.

ALL other sins listed in the Bible can be forgiven, ONLY if we acknowledge them, confess them, repent or turn from them and TRUST Jesus to forgive them.

It is not sufficient to believe that God exists. It is also necessary to believe IN God to do what He has said He would do and to KNOW that He has done it.

Son-cerely and securely in Christ Jesus,
Nate

 

[GrayArea]

*looks down at her white Nikes... "uh oh."
Amazing posts everyone, keep them coming.

"Jehovah created us in his image, which seems to suggest he'll forgive in such a way as well."

I would agree with this completely. A human father would snatch his child from certain death, kicking and screaming if necessary. Why wouldn't God do the same for us? God being the very essence of love, we must be merely childlike in comparison.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, "

Yeah but what about Peter? If this verse is taken at face value, God is either wishy-washy or oddly selective.

​

 

[GrayArea]

blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the only sin mentioned in Scripture that is unforgivable was something committed by the pharisees during Jesus's time
​

Committed by the pharisees or in danger of being committed? The were from the age of the law, before Christ redeemed us so that the spirit may reveal truth in our hearts. Could they really commit such a sin against something they'd never heard of? God's healing presence IN man? That surely did look like blasphemy to them when God's mere reflection shook Moses to the ground.

It would be despair to live in a world where there were actions that could not be forgiven.
​

I could not agree more. Problem is, i can not argue less. When i first became a Christian, salvation seemed so great i thought that everyone who didn't feel the same must be wrong. Then, i became dissapointed by the church and it's doctrines frustrated me so i denied everything. Again i felt that everyone that didn't feel the same must be wrong. Now, i meet things half way. If i get to one of those points where something seems obvious and right, i try everything possible to explore the other point. Yet i have only found anti-universalist defenses and no pro-hell/ unforgiveable sin arguments that indicate to me that the belief is anything but self distructive and demoralizing to God.

So, my challenge is to present a argument in denfense of unforgiveable sin that honors God, praises Jesus, and makes ethical sense to even those without a PHD in linguistics or biblical history. In laymens terms, why should i believe in unforgiveable sin? eh eh?what's the moral of the story?

 

[plmarquette]

to deny the work of the cross ;
to deny the effacy of the name and the blood ;
to refuse the work of Jesus ;
to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan ...

 

[GrayArea]

to deny the work of the cross ;
to deny the effacy of the name and the blood ;
to refuse the work of Jesus ;
to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan ...

are unforgiveable? But i know many, many christians who having turned on God entirely (or worse) which now serve him whole heartedly. They are unforegiven?

 

[Blackmarch]

ALso jesus said that to deny him was forgiveable, but to blaspheme the Holy Ghost, there is no forgiveness.

 

[GrayArea]

What is it to blaspheme the Holy Ghost? There may be a key in that but i've never truly understood the meaning to know if we are capable or guilty of it. Logically though it must truly be a huge sin because Peter and Paul were forgiven... and they were guilty of denial and horrible acts against God.

 

[Blackmarch]

Someone described it real good to me; it's basically when you have so much faith, that you know God and Jesus more than you believe that there is a sun out shining at noon day, and then deny them, choosing evil rather than good (it would be like you trying to go and convincing others that there is no sun, and you deny its existance after the fact you knew and believed without a doubt that the sun existed and was there, figuratively speaking.).

 

[Beoga]

Someone described it real good to me; it's basically when you have so much faith, that you know God and Jesus more than you believe that there is a sun out shining at noon day, and then deny them, choosing evil rather than good (it would be like you trying to go and convincing others that there is no sun, and you deny its existance after the fact you knew and believed without a doubt that the sun existed and was there, figuratively speaking.).

yet, i garentee that there has been people that have been in that position but God has turned them around. You'd think something as big as being unforgivable would be talked about more than just three times in scripture. why doesn't paul talk about it or peter, if it is something we could commit now?

 

[GrayArea]

Someone described it real good to me; it's basically when you have so much faith, that you know God and Jesus more than you believe that there is a sun out shining at noon day, and then deny them, choosing evil rather than good (it would be like you trying to go and convincing others that there is no sun, and you deny its existance after the fact you knew and believed without a doubt that the sun existed and was there, figuratively speaking.).

hmm.. also can you convince yourself to believe something contrary to what you know and experience? If you know the sun is there can you convince yourself it's not because that view seems more pleasing? If you know God's will can you convice yourself it's not His will but anothers? Or would you simply alter what you weren't sure of..