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What is Truth?

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Aquinas felt truth exists primarily in the intellect and secondarily in things. Augustine seemed to think truth exists in things more than in the intellect. Aquinas also seemed to believe that a thing only had being to the extent it was true, an idea I’ve never been able to get my head around.


Years ago when reading Q. 16 in the Summa I hit on Aquinas’ quote of Avicenna's (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which is immutably attached to it." This simple sentence struck me as a better explanation of truth than others because it seemed to play out more smoothly both in real life events and as a metaphysical prelude to understanding the Bible.


BTW, though truth per se is a legit philosophical topic, I pursue it as noted above, a metaphysical approach to a theology. As such, not sure where else this post would belong, so a mod can move it elsewhere if s/he feels it necessary. Given some of the topics that make it in here without getting booted, I’m guessing this one shouldn’t be a problem.


Both Aquinas and Augustine’s versions of truth need to be modified to Avicenna’s to more closely correspond to how existence works imo. Assuming truth is an actual property or quality in every “bit” of information, and information is the abstract stuff of reality or all that exists (to in-form is to have being of some real sort), then truth permeates all things existentially and more or less equally. Truth in this view would operate as a sort of “intangible glue” holding existence together and making it work, since the properties or goods associated with truth—unification, harmony, congruity, accord, etc.—all have in their nature with other truth-derivatives a proclivity for attraction. In this view, logic, mathematical formulae, syntactic conventions and engineering design are all derived from truth in the essence of things in reaction with all other things.


An immediate problem: if the quality (or qualitative property) of all information is truth, it would seem to follow that everything would exist in a perfection. (a Biblical connection rears its head…) Obviously, everything doesn’t. Extrapolating from truth in essence as the starting point for value in existence of any kind, we have an imperfect world. As truth = perfection, falsity = imperfection. The value of at least some aspects of existence is subject to falsification, producing imperfection. This leads to a value-fragmented reality where as entities grow more complex a enmity will permeate the states of affairs of everyday life from the natural enmity between true and false in essence.


Aquinas’ privation isn’t sufficient to explain evil in itself, though it describes an aspect of it. I think the starting point above goes much further in explaining how evil operates, though obviously more information is needed to properly flesh out the idea. But enough for starters.


I propose that starting from Avicenna’s simple proposition life unfolds in ways that seem to correspond to what we would expect it to be if true. Where and why does this fail?
 

zippy2006

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I'm not going to offer any concrete thoughts yet, but...

Aquinas felt truth exists primarily in the intellect and secondarily in things. Augustine seemed to think truth exists in things more than in the intellect. Aquinas also seemed to believe that a thing only had being to the extent it was true, an idea I’ve never been able to get my head around.

Where are you drawing these ideas? Particularly the first two?

Aquinas has an entire work on truth: Questiones Disputatae de Veritate.
 
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Where are you drawing these ideas? Particularly the first two?

Aquinas has an entire work on truth: Questiones Disputatae de Veritate.
Look in #1, article 2 in the link you provided. I'm not really interested in debating what Aquinas thought as much as hearing some good old Popperian falsification of the view of truth I put out there.
 
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Aquinas felt truth exists primarily in the intellect and secondarily in things. Augustine seemed to think truth exists in things more than in the intellect. Aquinas also seemed to believe that a thing only had being to the extent it was true, an idea I’ve never been able to get my head around.


Years ago when reading Q. 16 in the Summa I hit on Aquinas’ quote of Avicenna's (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which is immutably attached to it." This simple sentence struck me as a better explanation of truth than others because it seemed to play out more smoothly both in real life events and as a metaphysical prelude to understanding the Bible.


BTW, though truth per se is a legit philosophical topic, I pursue it as noted above, a metaphysical approach to a theology. As such, not sure where else this post would belong, so a mod can move it elsewhere if s/he feels it necessary. Given some of the topics that make it in here without getting booted, I’m guessing this one shouldn’t be a problem.


Both Aquinas and Augustine’s versions of truth need to be modified to Avicenna’s to more closely correspond to how existence works imo. Assuming truth is an actual property or quality in every “bit” of information, and information is the abstract stuff of reality or all that exists (to in-form is to have being of some real sort), then truth permeates all things existentially and more or less equally. Truth in this view would operate as a sort of “intangible glue” holding existence together and making it work, since the properties or goods associated with truth—unification, harmony, congruity, accord, etc.—all have in their nature with other truth-derivatives a proclivity for attraction. In this view, logic, mathematical formulae, syntactic conventions and engineering design are all derived from truth in the essence of things in reaction with all other things.


An immediate problem: if the quality (or qualitative property) of all information is truth, it would seem to follow that everything would exist in a perfection. (a Biblical connection rears its head…) Obviously, everything doesn’t. Extrapolating from truth in essence as the starting point for value in existence of any kind, we have an imperfect world. As truth = perfection, falsity = imperfection. The value of at least some aspects of existence is subject to falsification, producing imperfection. This leads to a value-fragmented reality where as entities grow more complex a enmity will permeate the states of affairs of everyday life from the natural enmity between true and false in essence.


Aquinas’ privation isn’t sufficient to explain evil in itself, though it describes an aspect of it. I think the starting point above goes much further in explaining how evil operates, though obviously more information is needed to properly flesh out the idea. But enough for starters.


I propose that starting from Avicenna’s simple proposition life unfolds in ways that seem to correspond to what we would expect it to be if true. Where and why does this fail?

My answer: God. All others pay mental cash ...
 
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True Scotsman

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Aquinas felt truth exists primarily in the intellect and secondarily in things. Augustine seemed to think truth exists in things more than in the intellect. Aquinas also seemed to believe that a thing only had being to the extent it was true, an idea I’ve never been able to get my head around.


Years ago when reading Q. 16 in the Summa I hit on Aquinas’ quote of Avicenna's (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which is immutably attached to it." This simple sentence struck me as a better explanation of truth than others because it seemed to play out more smoothly both in real life events and as a metaphysical prelude to understanding the Bible.


BTW, though truth per se is a legit philosophical topic, I pursue it as noted above, a metaphysical approach to a theology. As such, not sure where else this post would belong, so a mod can move it elsewhere if s/he feels it necessary. Given some of the topics that make it in here without getting booted, I’m guessing this one shouldn’t be a problem.


Both Aquinas and Augustine’s versions of truth need to be modified to Avicenna’s to more closely correspond to how existence works imo. Assuming truth is an actual property or quality in every “bit” of information, and information is the abstract stuff of reality or all that exists (to in-form is to have being of some real sort), then truth permeates all things existentially and more or less equally. Truth in this view would operate as a sort of “intangible glue” holding existence together and making it work, since the properties or goods associated with truth—unification, harmony, congruity, accord, etc.—all have in their nature with other truth-derivatives a proclivity for attraction. In this view, logic, mathematical formulae, syntactic conventions and engineering design are all derived from truth in the essence of things in reaction with all other things.


An immediate problem: if the quality (or qualitative property) of all information is truth, it would seem to follow that everything would exist in a perfection. (a Biblical connection rears its head…) Obviously, everything doesn’t. Extrapolating from truth in essence as the starting point for value in existence of any kind, we have an imperfect world. As truth = perfection, falsity = imperfection. The value of at least some aspects of existence is subject to falsification, producing imperfection. This leads to a value-fragmented reality where as entities grow more complex a enmity will permeate the states of affairs of everyday life from the natural enmity between true and false in essence.


Aquinas’ privation isn’t sufficient to explain evil in itself, though it describes an aspect of it. I think the starting point above goes much further in explaining how evil operates, though obviously more information is needed to properly flesh out the idea. But enough for starters.


I propose that starting from Avicenna’s simple proposition life unfolds in ways that seem to correspond to what we would expect it to be if true. Where and why does this fail?
Truth is the facts of reality or rather statements that describe the facts of reality. It is the product of the non-contradictory identification of these facts.
 
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Truth is the facts of reality or rather statements that describe the facts of reality. It is the product of the non-contradictory identification of these facts.
You seem to be saying truth is correspondence between mind and the world. I reject this as sufficient on the basis that correspondence, coherence, consensus, etc. theories are not notions of what truth is, they tell us what truth does. These are all properties of truth, not proper theories. I want to make the case that the answer to the question,

"What would the world look like if truth were an ontological reality, an actual quality inherent in all sorts of things?"

...is, "The world would look and act exactly like it does now."

Current theories, because they discuss truth's effects, not truth qua truth, can only describe aspects of it.
 
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KCfromNC

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You seem to be saying truth is correspondence between mind and the world. I reject this as sufficient on the basis that correspondence, coherence, consensus, etc. theories are not notions of what truth is, they tell us what truth does.

I'm not understating this objection. If truth is simply correspondence between our views and an actual state of affairs, then that's what truth is. Or even is, I guess. The word is is even right there in the description you use just before you say that it isn't what it is.
 
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I'm not understating this objection. If truth is simply correspondence between our views and an actual state of affairs, then that's what truth is. Or even is, I guess. The word is is even right there in the description you use just before you say that it isn't what it is.
I'm saying correspondence--or coherence, being non-contradictory, having unity, etc.--are only descriptions of what truth does. These are properties and properties in and of themselves aren't sufficient to say what truth is.

I have a rubber ball. The ball has elasticity, is pressurized, orange, bouncy, etc. The properties elasticity, pressure, color and bounce are not sufficient to tell us what the ball is. These are whatnesses attached to a thatness. See my point? In the same way, current theories of truth only tell us what truth does, not what it is. The difference between popular theories and Avicenna's statement is pretty big, as I see it. His is the only description I've seen of what truth is. We perceive correspondence, congruity, harmony, etc. because truth endues every bit of information. And for the record as a theist and Christian, I understand information to be anything that informs be it matter, universals, God or souls.

Its when truth and falsity start mixing that things get interesting.
 
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The properties elasticity, pressure, color and bounce are not sufficient to tell us what the ball is. These are whatnesses attached to a thatness.
Poor choice of wording on my part. Maybe should have said the properties are not sufficient to define what the ball is, they only describe universal aspects of it, they define its attributes. Correspondence is an attribute of truth, it's not what truth is. Hope this is more clear.
 
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KCfromNC

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Poor choice of wording on my part. Maybe should have said the properties are not sufficient to define what the ball is, they only describe universal aspects of it, they define its attributes. Correspondence is an attribute of truth, it's not what truth is. Hope this is more clear.

Nope, no better. Is there some sort of hidden appeal to idealism going on here?
 
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Is there some sort of hidden appeal to idealism going on here?
No. It's realist.

Your disagreement isn't clear to me so I went back and reread your posts, came up with this....
I'm not understating this objection. If truth is simply correspondence between our views and an actual state of affairs, then that's what truth is.
But I don't hold that truth is "...simply correspondence between our views and an actual state of affairs". I hold that literally all states of affairs in which true relations are apprehended--correspondences, non-contradictions, harmony, unity, congruence, etc.--are that way due to the existence of truth in the essence of every bit of information involved in those circumstances, from truth in the sense data used to convey ideas to the living information (intellect or soul) that processes received information to the stored information of knowledge. (I don't hold that only true information is knowledge....knowledge is just plain information, and all information is fragmentally falsified. This renders Gettier irrelevant and seems to me a much more accurate portrayal of reality that the awkward idea that information has to be true to be accepted as knowledge.)

To argue that the correspondence theory is better than coherence or some other makes little sense to me because they argue around truth. Sure one has truth when correspondence is recognized, but correspondence isn't truth itself, it's only what truth does.

Another analogy. I argue that weather is defined by rain, you say no, by cloudiness, another asserts that weather is temperature. We're not focusing on weather but on its attributes. So for truth.
 
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True Scotsman

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You seem to be saying truth is correspondence between mind and the world. I reject this as sufficient on the basis that correspondence, coherence, consensus, etc. theories are not notions of what truth is, they tell us what truth does. These are all properties of truth, not proper theories. I want to make the case that the answer to the question,

"What would the world look like if truth were an ontological reality, an actual quality inherent in all sorts of things?"

...is, "The world would look and act exactly like it does now."

Current theories, because they discuss truth's effects, not truth qua truth, can only describe aspects of it.
If correspondence to reality is not the measure of truth what is? Correspondence to unreality? I don't understand your objection. I did not say anything about what truth does. I was defining what truth is. That which exists.

What truth does is a different matter. Truth informs our concepts and enables us to deal with reality as we must if we want to live.
 
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If correspondence to reality is not the measure of truth what is? Correspondence to unreality? I don't understand your objection. I did not say anything about what truth does. I was defining what truth is. That which exists.
Correspondence to reality is a measure of truth. I'm arguing that correspondence or any of the current theories are not sufficient to define what truth is. They are each a part of what truth does, but fall short of telling us what it is.
 
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True Scotsman

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Correspondence to reality is a measure of truth. I'm arguing that correspondence or any of the current theories are not sufficient to define what truth is. They are each a part of what truth does, but fall short of telling us what it is.
I don't understand what you mean. What other measure is there besides correspondence to reality? Are you talking about some sort of metaphysical thing like an essence?
 
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I don't understand what you mean. What other measure is there besides correspondence to reality? Are you talking about some sort of metaphysical thing like an essence?
From the op.....

Years ago when reading Q. 16 in the Summa I hit on Aquinas’ quote of Avicenna's (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which is immutably attached to it." This simple sentence struck me as a better explanation of truth than others because it seemed to play out more smoothly both in real life events and as a metaphysical prelude to understanding the Bible.
 
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True Scotsman

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From the op.....

Years ago when reading Q. 16 in the Summa I hit on Aquinas’ quote of Avicenna's (Metaph. viii, 6), "The truth of each thing is a property of the essence which is immutably attached to it." This simple sentence struck me as a better explanation of truth than others because it seemed to play out more smoothly both in real life events and as a metaphysical prelude to understanding the Bible.
Ok. I see. That thing, which is immutably attached to it, is a things identity. But I think it's an error to call essences such as manness in man metaphysical. I think essences are epistemological in nature being a product of the process of abstraction.
 
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Ok. I see. That thing, which is immutably attached to it, is a things identity.
Yes.
But I think it's an error to call essences such as manness in man metaphysical. I think essences are epistemological in nature being a product of the process of abstraction.
Most do, it seems. I see truth, although an abstraction, as both ontological and epistemological. I think there's a lot of empirical evidence for truth, probably more for prescriptive truth as there is for factual truth. Is the statement that blondes and brunettes exist a reference to something real or just some ethereal notion?
 
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True Scotsman

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Yes.

Most do, it seems. I see truth, although an abstraction, as both ontological and epistemological. I think there's a lot of empirical evidence for truth, probably more for prescriptive truth as there is for factual truth. Is the statement that blondes and brunettes exist a reference to something real or just some ethereal notion?
I think that truth is a product of the process of identification which is conceptual. Therefore truth does not exist without the subject/ object relationship. The law of identity is the metaphysical basis for truth but truth is conceptual and can not be inherent in the object. We don't say that rock over there is true. We say the fact that that rock over there exists is true or that rock over there is sedimentary or igneous because it corresponds to the state of affairs in reality. The statement that blonds or brunettes exist does refer to something that is real because unreal things do not exist. It is not some ethereal notion. The object that we are calling blond or brunette exists and is real and the terms blond and brunette are our names we give to the respective colors of hair to differentiate and identify them and to communicate that identification to others.
 
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