What is "the world" in John 3:16?

DarkSoul999 said:

Nobody ever taught me anything and now I have to figure everything out on my own. I was treated like I was retarded my entire life.
In case you wonder why I am bitter and distrusting.

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GOOD! THANK YOU ! (we might have to move off forum)

God says NOT to trust men, but TEST EVERYTHING.
God says HE CURSES men who trust men.

He SAVES men who TRUST GOD.

DarkSoul999 said:

But aren't the prophets special exclusions?

What about the little old lady who ran the town pottery barn 4000 years ago?

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This again is mostly , in society, from greek mythology, tainted stories.
We won't get far on this forum if we oppose everything from greek mythology to stand up for the truth.

HTacianas said:

Anyone can receive faith. It's there for the asking. There is just such an example in the new testament.

Mar 9:24 - Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

The man prayed with tears that his lack of faith would be healed.

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I've always loved that one. I often think about it. I'm such a man. Worse, even, because he got cured and I can't always "see" properly, and there are struggles. But I'm always asking for more faith. And when I don't feel like I have faith, I make a decision to hold on to Christ anyway, to pray and bring my burdens to Him - in a sense, bypassing my own unbelief (not having faith in my own faith, but in Christ through all of my blurred vision and lack of feeling or understanding whenever I'm weak). I'm also reminded how Christ noted so many times how little faith His own disciples had!

DarkSoul999 said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

This seems to state that the "The World" is ONLY the people who " believe" (i.e have encountered the gospel, have read it, understood it, and believed it without any doubt). Those are the only people God loves and he thinks that all the rest of us are mongrels or worthless dung that should have never been born.

So what percentage of the human population does he actually love? Who are the incredibly lucky lotto winners who received faith from the spirit?

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This probably won't answer your question, as it may seem a side issue to you, but the Greek is apparently like old English and Spanish in the meaning (though modern English also allows it) of "so loved" in John 3:16. Some "translations" (I call them interpretations) go so far as to write, "loved the world so much", but it does not say that. I believe it is just as good to say, "loved the world like this" or "loved the world in the following way", according to the meaning of the word translated "so".

Likewise, the phrase "whosoever believes" would probably more accurately be translated, "the ones believing". There is no implication that it is the work of chance as to who the believers will be.

Logically, also, the implication drawn that the eternal life is the result of the belief, is not proven here. Language often states effect and effect together, without even showing the cause, or may show coincidence without designating which is the cause, or may highlight effect, and only mention cause. In the John 3:16 case, I see three ways to go with it, judging by other scriptures -- 1: the belief, if it is itself saving Faith, then may well be the cause. The decision to believe is not mentioned, and we know by many passages that true Faith is the gift of God, not of the will of man. 2: The belief, the work of the human, is not what produces the eternal life but is a concurrent event, both the result of true Faith which is the gift of God, not of the will of man. 3: The eternal life is itself one and the same with the gift of Faith, which is not of the will of man, and produces the conscious belief that we make so much of. Thus, if someone has this conscious belief, he has evidence of Faith and eternal life. --Either way, he is not the beginner of his Faith.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God." --I see "sons of God" and "power" as not specifically dealing with regeneration, though certainly it is not unrelated, but as the same thing referenced in "...creation waits in eager anticipation for the sons of God to be revealed." Romans 8. The power was his, "given to them" does not necessarily mean, it is now their power and up to them to use it.

Any way I go about these verses, I see no room for anything but a monergist point of view, due to the explicit meaning of other scriptures, which is certainly allowed by these verses that have been raised in objection to monergism.

DarkSoul999 said:

Nobody ever taught me anything and now I have to figure everything out on my own. I was treated like I was retarded my entire life.

In case you wonder why I am bitter and distrusting.

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I was taught my whole life, and still am figuring it out. MUCH of what I was taught was only tangental to the truth, and God has worked me over to realize he and I are not on the same plane. God does whatever he wants and owes me nothing. And I have come to love him for that. This is no longer about me.

The Judge of all the World will do what is right. Him, I can trust. People, not so much.

DarkSoul999 said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

This seems to state that the "The World" is ONLY the people who " believe" (i.e have encountered the gospel, have read it, understood it, and believed it without any doubt). Those are the only people God loves and he thinks that all the rest of us are mongrels or worthless dung that should have never been born.

So what percentage of the human population does he actually love? Who are the incredibly lucky lotto winners who received faith from the spirit?

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Have a good read of Zephaniah 1.

DarkSoul999 said:

Is there anyone in scripture who made it to heaven and WASN'T tough as nails?

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Lot ?

DarkSoul999 said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

This seems to state that the "The World" is ONLY the people who " believe" (i.e have encountered the gospel, have read it, understood it, and believed it without any doubt). Those are the only people God loves and he thinks that all the rest of us are mongrels or worthless dung that should have never been born.

So what percentage of the human population does he actually love? Who are the incredibly lucky lotto winners who received faith from the spirit?

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God so much loved every human soul, every last one, that He made a way that anyone who would come in good will trust -- "faith", believing in the Savior, Christ Jesus, Who came from God and told us to "love one another as I have loved you" -- that anyone could be saved even from (despite) all the wrongs they have done (!), even while we were at one time like enemies to God in our arrogance and wrongdoing. Even in forgiving even that level of alienation from Him (and His way of Love) we've done. It's Amazing Grace, as we say. See? The 'world' in this sentence is all humankind, you and me.

DarkSoul999 said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

This seems to state that the "The World" is ONLY the people who " believe" (i.e have encountered the gospel, have read it, understood it, and believed it without any doubt). Those are the only people God loves and he thinks that all the rest of us are mongrels or worthless dung that should have never been born.

So what percentage of the human population does he actually love? Who are the incredibly lucky lotto winners who received faith from the spirit?

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I'm not sure how you arrived at the reading of John 3:16 you lay out above. It is entirely possible for God to love the whole world while giving everlasting life only to those who reach out in faith and take it. If God thought of the world in the way you describe above, He would not have extended Himself at all to any of it. No one deserves to be saved, you see. We are all wicked sinners deserving only eternal punishment in hell. It is, then, only because God is a loving God that He offers salvation to us through Christ. And that gift of salvation is offered to the entire world. Being a gift, though, it is not forced upon the world, but given only to those who freely choose to take it.

DarkSoul999 said:

But belief is not a choice. There are many indications in scripture that it is a gift that only some people receive for a mysterious reason.

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God has made each of us capable of faith. Really, you can't navigate through modern life without exercising faith at nearly every turn. The average person places faith in their dentist, hairdresser, doctor, police, other drivers on the road, the postal service, restaurant cooks, and so on. It isn't, then, that we don't have faith we can exercise toward God but that we simply choose not to exercise it in His direction. Usually, this is because we don't think we have sufficiently good reason to do so.

DarkSoul999 said:

Can anyone really explain what it means to "believe"?

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For the apostle Paul, faith worked this way:


2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

To summarize: knowledge>belief>conviction>action. Paul's faith rested upon knowledge - knowledge of God and the Gospel. He did not blindly leap out into the dark. And being convinced of what he had come to believe about God and the Gospel, Paul entrusted himself to Him.

Here's another way of looking at faith:

"Faith is believing a thing is so,
When it appears it is not so,
In order for it to be so,
Because it is so."

DarkSoul999 said:

So would you still love him if he tossed you in an eternal burning charnel pit?

I think it would be more like Dante's Inferno at that point "abandon all hope ye who enter here".

God absolutely has the power and authority to do anything he wants....but if he decides you absolutely must burn I assure you that you sanity will quickly evaporate in the smoke.

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No, I'm pretty sure I would not, 1. because if that is my destination, then I've been fooling myself this whole time. 2. because even if I feel that way now, at that point I'm pretty sure I would not feel that way. 3. because as you say about sanity having evaporated, for those who go there, I'm pretty sure they will cease to resemble what we know them as now, having been separated from all virtue or any redeeming qualities.

As CS Lewis says,
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.”

DarkSoul999 said:

But belief is not a choice. There are many indications in scripture that it is a gift that only some people receive for a mysterious reason.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." -Ephesians 2:8-9

"to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit" - 1 Corinthians 12:9

Can anyone really explain what it means to "believe"? Most Christians believe that it is a huge list of spiritual milestones that you have to meet and if you faith to make sufficient progress Christ will say:

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" -Matthews 7:23

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Thank you for your question. I skimmed through the thread and I think no one actually addressed your list here. I think you have misread the passages. I'll try to explain here:

Ephesians 2:8-9 This verse speaks of "Grace" as the gift not belief or faith itself. See also Romans 6:23 the gift there being "eternal life".

1 Corinthians 12:9 The "faith" being spoken of here is more to do with faith that "moves mountains" and not faith in Jesus (aka salvific faith).

Matthew 7:23 This passage warns us that there will be false workers and false prophets but that Jesus as the Judge will know and reject them. Those that does the will of our heavenly Father will be accepted. So this is about works of obedience.

The world in John 3:16 means God loved everyone in the universe.

The world in other places just means the surrounding area and land, IE: Where Jesus Christ taught his disciples, who only knew the 'world around them at those times'.

Also The world, is actually replaced for Age, IE: (The Age of that Time) that would pass away.

SinoBen said:

Thank you for your question. I skimmed through the thread and I think no one actually addressed your list here. I think you have misread the passages. I'll try to explain here:

Ephesians 2:8-9 This verse speaks of "Grace" as the gift not belief or faith itself. See also Romans 6:23 the gift there being "eternal life".

1 Corinthians 12:9 The "faith" being spoken of here is more to do with faith that "moves mountains" and not faith in Jesus (aka salvific faith).

Matthew 7:23 This passage warns us that there will be false workers and false prophets but that Jesus as the Judge will know and reject them. Those that does the will of our heavenly Father will be accepted. So this is about works of obedience.

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Can you demonstrate by the Greek that the gift refers to the Grace, and not the Faith? I'm not going to argue the Greek until you do, but I think it is pretty obvious by the simple meaning of the word, Grace, that it is not a gift, but perhaps the nature of the giver, or the means of the giving.

Either way, other passages make it plain that Salvation is not a result of the work of man --this would be contrary to the Gospel, which is all to God's credit and none to any worthiness of man.

Logic too, shows that if man is in any way credited with obtaining eternal life, that it is no longer by grace, but by worthiness and ability of the two actors, God and man. But we know God is not subject to the will of man.

That we do indeed believe, and that we do respond is obvious, but that is the cause of nothing, except chain of thought, desire for obedience and even God himself, yet even that is the work of God, as some old erstwhile frustrated believers would tell you through many tears. We do not deserve anything.

Your organization would indicate that God is subject to mere chance, unless he makes some vessels more worthy than others, which is plainly against Scripture. None are worthy. We do not gain access God, nor relief from our fallen condition, but by the grace of God.

Mark Quayle said:

Can you demonstrate by the Greek that the gift refers to the Grace, and not the Faith? I'm not going to argue the Greek until you do, but I think it is pretty obvious by the simple meaning of the word, Grace, that it is not a gift, but perhaps the nature of the giver, or the means of the giving.

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Thanks Mark. I'll try but I think grace is indeed a gift... an unmerited gift/favour. If you think that "Faith" here is the "Gift" then please demonstrate that. OK so here is the passage again


I'm no Greek scholar so I have to draw from commentaries:



The entire previous sentence: “For by grace you have been saved through faith” I summarise as “grace” because the content of grace is salvation appropriated through faith.

Contextually the focus is on grace. There is no contrast between faith and works as the method to receiving salvation:

#1 - “grace” contrasted with “works”, thus

#2 - “grace” defined. The meaning of “grace” is controlled by the following parts:

#3 Some of Paul’s other usage.
2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7 (contrasting grace with works)
Romans 3:23-24 (grace as gift)