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Thank you JTF! I never looked at it that way and I've been troubled with the pre-trib rapture belief for a long time; it seems like they make the scriptures fit the doctrine rather than the other way around and I am trying to read scripture in a perspective to get rid of this bias when I read. Your scriptures are a very helpful!Just The Facts said:Hi Fire
Oh you will hear it is the church or the holy Spirit .of course NOT ONE VERSE TO BACK ANY OF IT UP.
This is soooooooo easy IF YOU TRUST GOD's WORDS.
Where is the Beast right now??????????????????????
20:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
he is in the Pit
Who is He???????????????????
9:11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
He is King of the Pit.......................He is king of the Fallen Angels
When does he Get out?????????????????????????????
9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2: And he opened the bottomless pit;
Why is he locked in the Pit..........and WHAT HOLDS HIM THERE ????????????????????????
2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
He is in the pit because of his Great Sin and he is held there by chains of Darkness that God holds the Key to………..God will give the Angel the key to the pit at the Fifth Trumpet and the Beast the Son of perdition will be revealed.
Of course you have to trust the word to see this and put aside all those doctrines of men.
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"
The Thessalonians had already been taught by Paul what the message in this passage is. They had been taught about the return of Christ and what must happen. In verse 6 Paul says, "and now you know what is holding him back" the Thessalonians already knew who this restrainer was.
My Opinion is that the lawless one will be revealed when his name comes into effect. The law must be taken out of the way. That or the truth. There couldn't possible be a pre-trib rapture because Daniel 7 says that the saints would be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time, it also says he will intend to change the times and the law. That is why he called the lawless one. The rebellion you spoke of is lawlessness. My opinion is that he comes about from apostasy. Because of falsehood, many will fall away from faith, and thus the lawless one will change things. Look, the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday instead of Saturday. We celebrate Jesus's Birthday with pagan items such as Santa Clause and even go as far as calling him St. Nick, so that people do good for presents on Christmas instead of pleasing God. They have homosexual bishops in the Episcople Church, (DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE LAW!!!) There is Saint worship, when in truth we are all saints and should not be praying to ourselves! There is Mary worship when Mary is just a servant that was blameless. What about Enoch? He was blameless, should we pray to him too? They make statues of someone who they havn't seen and they pray to pictures of people long dead. I believe what was holding back the lawlessone is now out of the way, I belive it is the truth; or the Spirit of Truth in most of the Church. It is very sad.Archangel said:Why don't we examine the passage that this can be found in before we venture to the rest of the prophecies reguarding the lawless one.
'3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.'
[2 Thess. 3-8]
Paul is writing to the Thessalonian church for the second time as they are worried that they have missed the second coming of Christ. Paul writes to encourage them that they are to stand firm and not to worry because Christ cannot return until the man of lawlessness comes [antichrist in other words].
Now what we have to understand is that we do not have the same insight into this text as Paul's readers, the Thessalonian Church, had. Look at verse 5:
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"
The Thessalonians had already been taught by Paul what the message in this passage is. They had been taught about the return of Christ and what must happen. In verse 6 Paul says, "and now you know what is holding him back" the Thessalonians already knew who this restrainer was.
The unfortunate problem for us is that we honestly do not know what Paul taught the Thessalonian Church when he was with them, so we have had to examine, and cross examine this text.
Lets take a look at how Paul talks about this 'restrainer'.
Firstly we see that the restrainer is both referred to as neuter and masculine, the restrainer is both something and someone:
'And now you know what is holding him back' [2:6]
'But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.' [2:7]
So, what we know from the text is that both the lawlessness is at work, but the restrainer is at work holding it back.
We have three main explainations on who and what the restrainer is.
1 The Holy Spirit and the work of the church
The Holy Spirit would fit the place of the someone, and the church the place of the something. This would mean that when the church, which has the Spirit in it, is removed [raptured?] from the earth, then the lawless one will be completly free to act [rising of antichrist?]
2 Apostles and preaching of gospel
The restraint in this case would be a delay until the world is evangelisied and all have heard the gospel. In this case the masculine restraint would be an apostle [Paul?] and the neuter would be the mission of preaching. The error with this however is how would Pauls removal bring about the return of Christ?
3 The Roman Empire
It could also be that the Emperor and the Roman Empire were the obstacles in the way of the lawlessness, what power could overthrow the empire? And not just the Roman Empire, but most states. The view is that when the state is removed, lawlessness takes control. Also Paul reguarded the state as God's agent for the punishment of eveil [Romans 13:1] So this view may also make sense.
Those are three views I managed to find that I widely hear. If I were to choose, even without knowledge of any of them, I think I would go for the Holy Spirit.
To me it makes sense that with the removal of the Church and the Spirit from the earth that lawlessness can take control.
Below I have a small timeline of possible order of events up to the coming of Christ, remember this is just an overall view of mine.
1 Removal of Church 2 Establishment of Antigod system under Antichrist 3 Period of Antichrist reign 4 Return of Christ
[Sorry forgot to paste in the top paragraph of what I had written earlier, no changes were made to the original post]
Firstly we see that the restrainer is both referred to as neuter and masculine, the restrainer is both something and someone:
'And now you know what is holding him back' [2:6]
'But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.' [2:7]
So, what we know from the text is that both the lawlessness is at work, but the restrainer is at work holding it back.
At least you don't believe in a raptureMy Opinion is that the lawless one will be revealed when his name comes into effect. The law must be taken out of the way. That or the truth. There couldn't possible be a pre-trib rapture because Daniel 7 says that the saints would be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time, it also says he will intend to change the times and the law. That is why he called the lawless one. The rebellion you spoke of is lawlessness. My opinion is that he comes about from apostasy. Because of falsehood, many will fall away from faith, and thus the lawless one will change things. Look, the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday instead of Saturday.
so who is the restrainer in your opinionIn Christ Forever said:
At least you don't believe in a raptureIs that changing the mosaic law? I will have to read on that.
reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men,
Ezekiel 39: 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, Drink the blood of the princes of the earth, Of rams and lambs, Of goats and bulls, All of them fatlings of Bashan. .
I KINGS 12:21 And when Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the House of Judah[southern kingdom] with the tribe of Benjamin, one hundred and eighty thousand chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the House of Israel[northern kingdom], that he might restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 16 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
The Restrainer in Thessalonians is Michael, the Archangel, the Commander of the Heavenly Angelic Host and Protector of Israel. Michael will one day in the future stop his protecting, at the direction of the Lord, for it will be the time of Jacob's trouble. Boy, I'll say! Israel is nearly destroyed at that time had it not been for the return of the Lord. Sorry, I don't remember exactly the verses. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.FireAngel said:I would like to know your beliefs about who the "Restrainer" is in Thessalonians. Can anyone out there share with me their thoughts on this and any good scriptures to study?
That is about what I said!!! I am still wondering if the man of sin and man of lawlessnes are the same or 2 different ones. The "man of sin" could symbolically be Christ as He did die on the CROSS for our sins.:ogood4u said:The Restrainer in Thessalonians is Michael, the Archangel, the Commander of the Heavenly Angelic Host and Protector of Israel. Michael will one day in the future stop his protecting, at the direction of the Lord, for it will be the time of Jacob's trouble. Boy, I'll say! Israel is nearly destroyed at that time had it not been for the return of the Lord. Sorry, I don't remember exactly the verses. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.
The restrainer could be Christ Himself[restraining the roman army maybe in a sense, don't know but studying on it?].
People trying to put this in the future will have a really hard time with this passage, and instead need to keep it in Paul's age I believe[just to try and understand it better].
One of the chief restrainers was Paul himself!! He was a chosen vessel of Christ to preach the gospel and what is so ironic is, as soon as he was martyred, the roman army was sent by God into Israel to destroy the temple and city.
The man of lawlessness was already there. Whether this was just one man or a religious system I don't know.
I would disagree, the beast is the antichrist. And the antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.19) before Satan is bound (Rev.20), so.....prophet? said:Judas. According to many theologians the lowest pit of Hell is reserved for the Juddeca, or "like Judas." If you remember, Judas betrayed Jesus. (I don't mean to insult your intelligence) It can't be Satan. He is the AntiChrist. therefore, Judas is the restrainer.
Like you said, the beast was made in the image of the dragon(the father of lies) so thus he is the antichrist, because by assuming the identity of Christ, he opposes Christ, because Christ died on the cross and rose again three days later, anything opposed to this gospel is antichrist, so yes the beast is the antichrist, shaped in the image of the father of lies. The false prophet on the other hand is just gonna do what John the Baptist did for Jesus, he's gonna hail his return. That's all I have on that.Just The Facts said:Hi Bracco
What that proves is that the Beast is not the Devil.................not that the Ac is not the Beast ..in reality there is no "Anti Christ" that term means to deny Christ...................the Beast or Son of perdition does not deny that Jesus came he says he is Jesus returned hardly an Anti Christ.......................But alas that is the name the masses use so we must too so as not to confuse everyone.
So the Ac is the Beast but he is not the Devil ..............................he is in the Pit the Devil roams free waiting to devour you...........................the beast is just another tool of the master of lies to try and deceive those who actually have salvation ie: Christianity. The Devil is not going to waste his time trying to fool the Muslims or the Hindus or Jews .............why waste his time there are lost and will go to the lake of fire.
he is out to deceive one group and one group only THOSE WHO HAVE SALVATION.
His Great illusion his Prime tool is the Beast in the pit the King of the Pit. He will use him to try and deceive Christianity into believing he is Jesus returned.
They can believe in God, but not in God coming down in the flesh and dying for us, Jesus.What that proves is that the Beast is not the Devil.................not that the Ac is not the Beast ..in reality there is no "Anti Christ" that term means to deny Christ...................the Beast or Son of perdition does not deny that Jesus came he says he is Jesus returned hardly an Anti Christ.......................But alas that is the name the masses use so we must too so as not to confuse everyone.
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