What is the purpose of the entire "mariology-hagiography" sub-forum?

[Doug Brents]

Mary was nothing more than a human girl with no greater claim to righteousness or worship than any other human (Rom 3:23, Luke 4:8).
The same can be said for the so called "saints". All of those who are in Christ are saints, and there is no special category of people withing the Church who are more saints than any of the rest of us (Rom 1:7, Rom 16:2, Eph 4:12 (Matt 28:19 all who are in Christ are called to ministry), Eph 5:3, 1 Cor 1:2, Col 1:12). And the saints (those who are right with God) are not unique to the NT, but are also mentioned in the Psalms (30:4, 34:9).

Further, we are called to not give titles, praise, or position to anyone within the Church, save Christ only (Matt 23:8-12).

My friends, let us please put Mary and the "saints" in their proper place. Mary was a good woman, for sure. But she deserves no greater praise than that she did not shy away from the shame of bearing the Christ with the shadow of the appearance of sin over her. The "saints" (that some religious groups praise) are nothing more than good men who were strong in the faith. Many of them may have died for the faith, but that does not make them any greater than those of us who have lived a long life for the faith (John, for his long life, was no less holy than was Peter or Paul, who were martyred).

If you are in Christ, you are a saint. And if you are a saint then you are a joint heir with Christ of the riches of Heaven and eternal life (Rom 8:17). I am not trying to denigrate, or disparage either Mary or the "saints". I simply believe that they are no greater than any of the rest of us who are in Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Mary was nothing more than a human girl with no greater claim to righteousness or worship than any other human (Rom 3:23, Luke 4:8).
The same can be said for the so called "saints". All of those who are in Christ are saints, and there is no special category of people withing the Church who are more saints than any of the rest of us (Rom 1:7, Rom 16:2, Eph 4:12 (Matt 28:19 all who are in Christ are called to ministry), Eph 5:3, 1 Cor 1:2, Col 1:12). And the saints (those who are right with God) are not unique to the NT, but are also mentioned in the Psalms (30:4, 34:9).

Further, we are called to not give titles, praise, or position to anyone within the Church, save Christ only (Matt 23:8-12).

My friends, let us please put Mary and the "saints" in their proper place. Mary was a good woman, for sure. But she deserves no greater praise than that she did not shy away from the shame of bearing the Christ with the shadow of the appearance of sin over her. The "saints" (that some religious groups praise) are nothing more than good men who were strong in the faith. Many of them may have died for the faith, but that does not make them any greater than those of us who have lived a long life for the faith (John, for his long life, was no less holy than was Peter or Paul, who were martyred).

If you are in Christ, you are a saint. And if you are a saint then you are a joint heir with Christ of the riches of Heaven and eternal life (Rom 8:17). I am not trying to denigrate, or disparage either Mary or the "saints". I simply believe that they are no greater than any of the rest of us who are in Christ.

Statement of Purpose - Statement of Purpose for the Mariology & Hagiography forum

Statement of Purpose for Mariology and Haigiography I. Address the post and not the poster Address the context of the post and do not specifically attack a member or group of members. Goading posts are intentionally or unintentionally baiting other members into responding with a flame...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Doug Brents]

Statement of Purpose - Statement of Purpose for the Mariology & Hagiography forum

Statement of Purpose for Mariology and Haigiography I. Address the post and not the poster Address the context of the post and do not specifically attack a member or group of members. Goading posts are intentionally or unintentionally baiting other members into responding with a flame...

www.christianforums.com

This is less than worthless in answering my post. This "statement of purpose" is simply a restating of some of the site rules about posting etiquette. It does not in any way give a reason or purpose for the elevation and glorification of either Mary or "saints".

 

[prodromos]

This is less than worthless in answering my post. This "statement of purpose" is simply a restating of some of the site rules about posting etiquette. It does not in any way give a reason or purpose for the elevation and glorification of either Mary or "saints".

At the above link it states the following:

The Mariology and Hagiography forum is for discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints. All members who participate in Mariology and Hagiography are self-identified Christians through adherence to the Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. It is expected that people who post in this forum will respect all members of the Christian faith.​

 

[Doug Brents]

At the above link it states the following:

The Mariology and Hagiography forum is for discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints. All members who participate in Mariology and Hagiography are self-identified Christians through adherence to the Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. It is expected that people who post in this forum will respect all members of the Christian faith.​

So again I ask, why is there a forum for "discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints" when Mary was just a normal human girl with nothing special about her (no special "holiness" or grace), and the "saints" are the manufacture of man (see my OP)? This is a complete waste of a sub-forum, because it is neither Biblical nor Spiritual.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So again I ask, why is there a forum for "discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints" when Mary was just a normal human girl with nothing special about her (no special "holiness" or grace), and the "saints" are the manufacture of man (see my OP)? This is a complete waste of a sub-forum, because it is neither Biblical nor Spiritual.

It is for Catholics. If you wish to register your concerns, you can repost in " Controversial ".
Blessings

 

[prodromos]

So again I ask, why is there a forum for "discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints" when Mary was just a normal human girl with nothing special about her (no special "holiness" or grace), and the "saints" are the manufacture of man (see my OP)? This is a complete waste of a sub-forum, because it is neither Biblical nor Spiritual.

That is your opinion, which is not shared by the vast majority of Christians worldwide.

 

[prodromos]

It is for Catholics. If you wish to register your concerns, you can repost in " Controversial ".
Blessings

Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, high Anglicans. Not just Catholics.

 

[Philip_B]

Mary was nothing more than a human girl with no greater claim to righteousness or worship than any other human

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’ But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’ Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ The angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.’ Then Mary said, ‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’ Then the angel departed from her.

 

[Doug Brents]

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’ But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’ Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ The angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.’ Then Mary said, ‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’ Then the angel departed from her.

This passage is a great commentary on the greatness of Jesus, but is says nothing about any greatness in Mary. She was favored by God, but it is Jesus whom he said would be great, and it was Jesus whom he said would have David's throne, and it was Jesus whom he said would be King forever. None of His greatness rubs off on Mary, or causes her to be any greater than you or I.

 

[Doug Brents]

That is your opinion, which is not shared by the vast majority of Christians worldwide.

And because it is the "majority" opinion that makes it truth?
Sorry, but the majority is in conflict with Scripture, and it is Scripture that we must abide by.

 

[prodromos]

And because it is the "majority" opinion that makes it truth?

Does your "minority" opinion?

Sorry, but the majority is in conflict with Scripture, and it is Scripture that we must abide by.

Again, that is your opinion.

 

[Doug Brents]

Does your "minority" opinion?

Again, that is your opinion.

No, Scripture makes it truth or not. And as I showed, Mary and the "saints" were no more special or holy than anyone else who is in Christ. And they certainly shouldn't be prayed to (or through) for Jesus is our ONLY mediator and advocate with the Father.

 

[prodromos]

No, Scripture makes it truth or not. And as I showed, Mary and the "saints" were no more special or holy than anyone else who is in Christ. And they certainly shouldn't be prayed to (or through) for Jesus is our ONLY mediator and advocate with the Father.

Right... so you never ask anybody else to pray for you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Right... so you never ask anybody else to pray for you.

We are called to pray "for" each other, but we are commanded not to pray "to" each other. Mary, and most (if not all) of the "saints" are dead. We can no longer talk to them and ask them to pray for us, because it would take praying "to" them to get them to pray "for" us. And that is what Jesus alone does for us (1 Tim 2:5-6, Heb 7:25, John 14:6).

 

[Philip_B]

We are called to pray "for" each other, but we are commanded not to pray "to" each other. Mary, and most (if not all) of the "saints" are dead. We can no longer talk to them and ask them to pray for us, because it would take praying "to" them to get them to pray "for" us. And that is what Jesus alone does for us (1 Tim 2:5-6, Heb 7:25, John 14:6).

Jesus conquered death that death might have no more dominion over us. It is an affirmation of the resurrection that we pray with the saints.
Christ is Risen! He is Risen indeed! Alleluia!

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus conquered death that death might have no more dominion over us. It is an affirmation of the resurrection that we pray with the saints.
Christ is Risen! He is Risen indeed! Alleluia!

Completely beside the point, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Jesus is the ONLY person, entity, thing, being (whatever) to/through whom we should be praying. There is NO OTHER mediator or intermediary between us and the Father. To pray to another is blasphemy.

 

[Philip_B]

Completely beside the point, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Jesus is the ONLY person, entity, thing, being (whatever) to/through whom we should be praying. There is NO OTHER mediator or intermediary between us and the Father. To pray to another is blasphemy.

Completely missed the point.

 

[Doug Brents]

Completely missed the point.

Then please enlighten me to your point.

 

[FenderTL5]

..through Him who became incarnate, Hades has been captured, and Adam has been called back; the curse has been killed, and Eve has been freed; death has been put to death, and we have been brought back to life. Therefore we extol Him and cry out, “O Christ our God, You are blessed, for so was Your good pleasure. Glory to You!”

Jesus conquered death that death might have no more dominion over us. It is an affirmation of the resurrection that we pray with the saints.
Christ is Risen! He is Risen indeed! Alleluia!