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What IS the lesson here?

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memoriesbymichelle

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Yesterday I went home and cried.....I cried for someone I don't even know in real life, but I feel like he was a friend and I truly did care about him, and I know that's true for the rest of us.

I have to believe that it was his time otherwise he would not have been successful. I choose to believe that had he not taken his life he might very well have died on the operating table. It's the only way I can wrap my mind around what has happened.

So last night I was thinking, "I wonder what the lesson here is?" I was really hopeful that we could send Dan so much encouragement that he would embrace it and still be with us today. But I also know that any encouragement I give is worth nothing without the Holy Spirit directing my words. Jesus gets all the glory for anything good I would have said to Dan.
Is the lesson the fact that we cannot talk people into getting or being able to be saved?
Is the lesson not to think too highly of ourselves when we consider our words?
Is the lesson simply that life is short and we need to quit wasting time?
All of the above? IDK
 

Doctor Strangelove

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Romans 8:20 says creation is subject to futility. That is not the last word but it is our present reality. In a sense our lives under the sun are futile even if we are rich and comfortable. If you live a normal life with normal problems there is so much to struggle against! How much more must Dan have had to struggle with! Christ broke into our futile, dying world. I won't turn this into some sort of encouraging Easter message. It seems like in contemporary Christianity we go from Christmas to Easter and we kind of gloss over Good Friday. We are all mortally wounded - it is just more visible on some than on others. How to affirm life while still seeing the futility of things? That is an issue I have struggled with (sometimes I am thankful I don't have any children - I know that is the wrong attitude). I am still trying to absorb what happened. I think it is okay to be perplexed.
 
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dayhiker

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Most of this is personal, how I see it and based on very little fact so Almost certainly wrong.

Dan's last post said to me that he really appreciated his time conversing with us.

I think it speaks to an evil side of our government that most of us don't like to admit is real. Dan finally saw that and his part in it. Because he was sensitive to the Spirit of God he felt betrayed and hurt beyond words.

I get the impression the physical damage from and explosion(?) was so bad there wasn't any real hope of it being fixed.

It appeared his choosing the service over family meant that his family didn't really know him and so were moving on with their life. When all this came to ahead I assume there was some soft of family incident that exasperated the problem.

This I believe to be true.
I am very proud of how this board responded to Dan. I think it did give him some hope, yet his situation needed way more than all we could give. Actually, I think only God can heal him at this point. So suicide or natural death I think Dan will find a love way beyond the love we can give him. From that love will come a healing that very seldom happens here on earth.
 
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memoriesbymichelle

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Dr. and dayhiker, I totally agree with what you posted. I am still in shock myself. I too, was very touched that Dan shared as much with us in such a short time. I do not think he was evil and I don't care about any legalist that wants to assure us that Dan is not with God, I believe he IS. No one can prove where he is or isn't so it's a mute point anyway.

It's so strange and yet wonderful that I cried for someone I never met IRL. I only hope he wrote some sentences to his kids so they will know that they were on his mind but he just hurt too bad to stay here and wait.

So.....where do we go from here?

What can we take from this situation to better our lives? or other people's lives thru us while we are here?

One thing I can think of is being more sensitive. We can never know what someone else is going thru, so we should not act like we do. We can have sympathy but maybe not always empathy because we have not experienced what they have or are.

I just got on FB this morning and my step daughter posted that her boyfriend died day before yesterday. That's 3 deaths this week for me of people I knew or friends of people I knew. I'm not sure how he died. But death is always sad.
 
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dayhiker

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I personally don't look for this room to need to do more. We loved Dan very effectively in the way we could. I'm glad to say I've been apart of this message board. Its an example of the good we can do while only having the words we can type.
 
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blackribbon

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The message is that we can't save everyone. Dan had been thinking about this for a very long time and he just let us in at the end. He delayed his plan by at least 10 days because he got a positive response from us, but his inner crisis was larger than could be address via an internet forum. I think he gave up because his life was just overwhelming and he didn't see a chance for it to get much better. He might have been right. I'm not convinced but now we will never know. I think the system failed him because they prioritize his physical problems over his psychological ones....and never allowed him to understand that his feelings were valid even if they were not socially acceptable. He was a smart man and knew he had the means to do what he did...he knew this months ago and for whatever reason, life just got too much at this moment. I do not believe it was any one thing but rather a lot of little things stacked on top of each other.
 
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blackribbon

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1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.


Mark 9:42
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
 
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chinchillin

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i don't think this passage means what you think it means.

Mark 9:42
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

it does not say "it would be better for them if they hung a large millstone around their neck and threw themselves into the sea." think about it.

Jesus on Cutting Off Temptations (Mark 9:42-50) - Analysis and Commentary
the website name may be a little off-putting but it is very well written and not at all atheistic. it is simply explaining the meaning of your quoted scripture. it is a really good article and i recommend you read it all.


42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Jesus, Sin, and Hell

We find here a series of warnings of what awaits those foolish enough to give in to temptations to sin. Scholars have argued that all of these sayings were actually stated at different times and in different contexts where they would have made sense. Here, however, we have them all drawn together on the basis of thematic similarity.

Whereas earlier passages were designed to explain some of the dangers of prophetic discipleship, here we have warnings about inauthentic discipleship. If one is willing to follow Jesus, they will have to be willing to do so consistently and honestly.

The word used here in this translation is “offend.” Sometimes it is rendered as “scandalize,” but a more accurate translation would be “to cause to fall away” (in Greek, literally “be tripped”). What is meant is that none of the “little ones” (children, the powerless, or those weak in faith) should be caused to “fall away” from the “good news.” Anyone who acts in a manner that does cause this will be in trouble.

Thus Jesus’ disciples are cautioned not to lose their “saltness,” which means they should not lose their effectiveness at what they do. For this, they must stop vying with one another for positions of power and privilege; instead, they should focus on the task at hand which is to spread Jesus’ message and serve others.

It is curious that the verse “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” is repeated here three times: 44, 46, and 48. The King James Version is just about the only translation to do this. Nearly every other translation leaves out 44 and 46 entirely, retaining just the instance in verse 48. This is apparently consistent with most of the ancient authorities on Mark but it does cause a problem for those modern Christian who insist that only the KJV is in any way authoritative.




Gerd Lüdemann argues that what we have here are remnants of a pre-Marcan catechism. Once the repetitive verses are stripped away, we are left with a series of parallel statements that definitely have the flavor of a catechism where entering the Kingdom of God is contrasted with Gehenna:
  • 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

    45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

    47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
It’s even plausible that the repetitive phrases really were original after all — they read an awful lot like the “response” portion of either the responsorial Psalms (where a lector recites a verse and the congregation responds with the antiphon) or the “General Intercessions” where a lector reads a prayer for intercession (such as for world peace) and the congregation responds with “Lord, Hear our Prayer.” Although this sounds very negative and pessimistic, it’s not an unreasonable perspective for a community suffering from persecution. Of course there would be an emphasis on the need to avoid anything that would cause one to fall away from Christian faith, to focus on maintaining the community, and the dire consequences that await backsliders in the apocalypse which must be very close at hand.


One common interpretation of this passage of Mark is that Christians must keep themselves separate from evil and sin in order to remain near to God in themselves. If this requires denying or removing some aspect of themselves, then that is a price they must be willing to pay because it would be better to go to heaven without that part of themselves than to remain whole but also in the fires of hell.

Some Christians have taken all of this literally and have gone so far as to cut off pieces of their body in order eliminate any temptations those body parts. Even many Christian theologians have recognized, however, that taking these lines literally is to seriously misunderstand them because earlier statements of Jesus argue that that which is “unclean” comes not from the outside, but rather from a person’s heart and mind.

If that is the case, then we must conclude that temptation, too, is more a product of hearts and minds than of hands and feet. Even if we attribute temptations to Satan, it would still be an error to blame our eyes. So how should we read this? I think that the point being made is that temptation can be very much a part of our lives but that, in order to avoid temptation, sometimes we may have to cut ourselves off from some aspect of our lives.

We might, for example, be living in a dysfunctional relationship where a person is a constant source of temptation, such as, always offering us drugs or alcohol. This may be a very old relationship which we find very comforting most of the time, but Jesus’ message is that it would be better for us to give it up rather than give in to the temptations it forces upon us.

The fate of those who give in to temptation is, however, rather disturbing. This isn’t the only passage where Jesus emphasizes the idea that those who do not follow him are destined to spend eternity in torment down in hell. One has to wonder what sort of “love” Jesus is here to share when such a penalty awaits those who don’t accept that love.

To say “love me or I will punish you and make your existence one of suffering and torment” is characteristic of an abusive boyfriend or husband — and we don’t normally say that such people really “love” their partners. They may think that they love, but in fact they have confused power and control for love and kindness. The same might be said here about Jesus and God: instead of accepting people unconditionally, despite their flaws and faults, Jesus is insisting that the only way he will accept them is if they can fit into his model of how humans should behave, specifically by following him and obeying his commands.

It should not be assumed that such an attitude is unique to Christianity. On the contrary, this was very much in keeping with Jewish traditions. Similarly dysfunctional ideas about how God relates to humanity can be found throughout the Old Testament in the descriptions of how God treats the nation of Israel. Marriage and even rape are used in places like the Book of Hosea, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah as metaphors for the relationship between God and the Jews. The “appropriate” response of God to Israel’s infidelity is chastisement and punishment; only when they agree to be subservient and obedient are they again shown anything like affection and tenderness.
 
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memoriesbymichelle

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I figured out what the lesson is (at least for me at this moment lol)

The lesson is to learn to love the unlovable and I have two members of my family that try really hard at being unlovable but I love them anyway, I just have to do a better job of showing it to them.
 
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blackribbon

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I figured out what the lesson is (at least for me at this moment lol)

The lesson is to learn to love the unlovable and I have two members of my family that try really hard at being unlovable but I love them anyway, I just have to do a better job of showing it to them.

I believe that is the message to all of us.
 
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