What is the difference between PCA and OPC?

[gene1mingo]

I recently found an OPC church to attend, which is a huge blessing since I live in rural Arizona. (Its only an hour and half drive to go there.)

So what are the differences between PCA and OPC? I was told that it is mostly worship, but what does that actually include?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

first, where in AZ?, i live in Tucson.

second, the big difference between the PCA and the OPC is what i call center of mass and width of acceptable positions..

most organization have a crucial list of must believe principles. The PCA and OPC have such a list, but more for Teaching Elders then for anyone else.

you can try to map a right left axis on most of these principles. for example:
on the issue of women in the church:
rightmost, no women speak in public at the church. just to the left is women speak only to groups of women. a little bit more to the left is women speak to groups of men and women but don't teach. then women acceptable as Sunday School teachers, then as deacons, then as ruling elders, then as teaching elders, then the position that women must represent on a session the same % as they are in the church.

almost all issues can be plotted this way. it shows a variation in potential beliefs. well, there is an acceptable right and left point in most groups. for instance, in both the PCA and OPC there is no one pushing for the ordination of women as teaching elders. there may be a few women deacons but probably are no ruling elders, where the EPC has a few women RE's.

what is interesting, at least to me, is to map out what looks like a cap over the organization which is the length between the rightmost acceptable position and the leftmost. the OPC seems to have a shorter acceptable distance, that is they are more homogeneous on most issues than is the PCA.

another issue i have thought about is this center of mass idea. Where do the majority of people in either church fall in this continuum of beliefs?
the PCA appears to have a center of mass a little bit to the left from the OPC on nearly every issue i have studied. Not just a wider acceptable viewpoint, but the majority of people in the OPC are to the right of the majority of the PCA.

another issue i think is important, is the relative theological sophistication of the two groups. the OPC consistently strikes me as having a more educated laity then the PCA.

that being said. i am comfortable with and have been a member of both churches, as well as the EPC.

 

[gene1mingo]

first, where in AZ?, i live in Tucson.

second, the big difference between the PCA and the OPC is what i call center of mass and width of acceptable positions..

most organization have a crucial list of must believe principles. The PCA and OPC have such a list, but more for Teaching Elders then for anyone else.

you can try to map a right left axis on most of these principles. for example:
on the issue of women in the church:
rightmost, no women speak in public at the church. just to the left is women speak only to groups of women. a little bit more to the left is women speak to groups of men and women but don't teach. then women acceptable as Sunday School teachers, then as deacons, then as ruling elders, then as teaching elders, then the position that women must represent on a session the same % as they are in the church.

almost all issues can be plotted this way. it shows a variation in potential beliefs. well, there is an acceptable right and left point in most groups. for instance, in both the PCA and OPC there is no one pushing for the ordination of women as teaching elders. there may be a few women deacons but probably are no ruling elders, where the EPC has a few women RE's.

what is interesting, at least to me, is to map out what looks like a cap over the organization which is the length between the rightmost acceptable position and the leftmost. the OPC seems to have a shorter acceptable distance, that is they are more homogeneous on most issues than is the PCA.

another issue i have thought about is this center of mass idea. Where do the majority of people in either church fall in this continuum of beliefs?
the PCA appears to have a center of mass a little bit to the left from the OPC on nearly every issue i have studied. Not just a wider acceptable viewpoint, but the majority of people in the OPC are to the right of the majority of the PCA.

another issue i think is important, is the relative theological sophistication of the two groups. the OPC consistently strikes me as having a more educated laity then the PCA.

that being said. i am comfortable with and have been a member of both churches, as well as the EPC.

The OPC church is in Prescott, I think thats about a 4 hour drive for you. I live in cottonwood and there is a group of 4 families here that are trying to get a OPC church started. The Pastor from the Prescott church comes over on thursday night and leads a worship/bible study for us. I think the nearest OPC to you is in the Phoenix area.

Thank you for the insight into the difference between the churchs. This is the first time I have ever attended a reformed church. I grew up in more charasmatic type denominations. I have only seen the OPC side of the church. I have no intention of switching churchs. I just wanted to know more about the difference.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The OPC church is in Prescott, I think thats about a 4 hour drive for you. I live in cottonwood and there is a group of 4 families here that are trying to get a OPC church started. The Pastor from the Prescott church comes over on thursday night and leads a worship/bible study for us. I think the nearest OPC to you is in the Phoenix area.

Thank you for the insight into the difference between the churchs. This is the first time I have ever attended a reformed church. I grew up in more charasmatic type denominations. I have only seen the OPC side of the church. I have no intention of switching churchs. I just wanted to know more about the difference.

there are 4 PCA churches in Tucson, no OPC nor EPC.

interestingly the charismatic issue is much wider in the PCA than the OPC. The New LIfe churches left the OPC in about 1989 for the PCA over the principles of worship. i understand that there are charismatic churches in the South in the PCA but don't know of it first hand, only by off hand discussions, so take it with that proviso.
this forum, imho is a good one since there is a wide range of churches we belong to, and we get a variation of ideas as a result.

 

[icbeckyc]

Well I will have to ask some stupid questions real quick. Sorry to be horning in on this topic and if I need to move my question I will. The PCA and OPC. I go to a PCA and I have been a deacon and and Elder, I am not on the session at this time, my term ended 2 years ago. You said there may be a few women deacons but probably are no ruling elders, where the EPC has a few women RE's. Is this possibly something that is regional, my understanding with the book of order it is to be the same all around the US. Or maybe I am miss understanding something.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Well I will have to ask some stupid questions real quick. Sorry to be horning in on this topic and if I need to move my question I will. The PCA and OPC. I go to a PCA and I have been a deacon and and Elder, I am not on the session at this time, my term ended 2 years ago. You said there may be a few women deacons but probably are no ruling elders, where the EPC has a few women RE's. Is this possibly something that is regional, my understanding with the book of order it is to be the same all around the US. Or maybe I am miss understanding something.

5. The understanding of the role of women in the life of the church differs widely. For example, one Presbyterian denomination requires that women be elected as Elders and Deacons, another forbids their election. Clearly these are equally sincere Christians who differ on this issue. In the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, the decision to elect women as Ruling Elders or Deacons is left to the discretion of the local congregation. We believe that under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, God's people should be free to follow His leading on this important issue.

from: http://www.faithpreschurch.org/epc_distinctives.htm

there is a nice thread on deaconess at PB:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=6889

1. The deacons will not be ordained, they will be commissioned. This will allow women to serve in a deacon role, but not wield any authority, and therefore skirting around the BCO. Basically a semantic loophole.

2. We will not be the only church that does this. Several PCA churches have adopted this practice to allow for deaconesses, including Redeemer PCA in NY.

I think this is major developing issue in the PCA, and really confirms to me the rift that is forming between progressive and conservative PCA churches.

this is the posting i was referring to before.
does that answer your question?

 

[chrismon]

PCA is less pharisaical in its rigorous religiosity. But not by much.

 

[heymikey80]

I recently found an OPC church to attend, which is a huge blessing since I live in rural Arizona. (Its only an hour and half drive to go there.)

So what are the differences between PCA and OPC? I was told that it is mostly worship, but what does that actually include?

Well, I've been a member of PCA, OPC, and EPC churches and taught in each. I'm in the EPC right now.

Hm ... theologically the OPC and PCA occupy much the same ground, with the exception of Reconstructionism. The OPC is sympathetic to Reconstructionism and Reconstructionist Theonomy.

More into the politics of the denomination ... the OPC is more Confessionally oriented. It requires a smaller range of views on the sacraments and on Sunday worship than the PCA. The OPC has greater representation of psalm-singers, paedobaptists, strict confessionalists, and the regulative principle than in PCA churches. The OPC also has much higher representation among strongly respected theologians historically than the PCA. The OPC has a strong representation of homeschoolers and private schoolers. The OPC has fought for conservative positions much longer than the PCA has been in existence and has a rich history of strongly Presbyterian teachers across a number of theological positions. And the OPC also has advocacy groups among theonomists, both historical and Reconstructionists.

Liturgy is more conservative and tends more toward classical interpretations of the regulative principle of worship. The denomination is essentially cessationist; essentially prohibits women from holding office; and a majority are "of-age" communionists, though there is a significant and often well-respected group of paedocommunionists in the OPC.

My personal sentiment: individual OPC churches can violate and definitely put at-risk the Westminster Confession's view of Liberty of Conscience as regarding faith and worship. I won't go into it, but it's a risk that individual churches in any denomination take when they seek to apply positions that aren't well-understood. Read that section of Westminster. Buy GI Williamson's (OPC) book on Westminster for Study and read his exposition of it. Read Fisher's Catechism on it. And be ready to defend it among those who are young in the faith.

 

[chrismon]

...it's a risk that individual churches in any denomination take when they seek to apply positions that aren't well-understood....

Substitute "well-understood" for "important".

Were it not for such theological myopia folks like the Anabaptists would be known more for their radicalism in regards to the incompatibility between Empire and the Church, instead of this silliness about when to be baptized. What will make the Church strong is not when they are baptized, or what they believe is God's wisdom concerning each individuals eternal fate, but when they learn to belong only to Christ.

 

[heymikey80]

Substitute "well-understood" for "important".

Were it not for such theological myopia folks like the Anabaptists would be known more for their radicalism in regards to the incompatibility between Empire and the Church, instead of this silliness about when to be baptized. What will make the Church strong is not when they are baptized, or what they believe is God's wisdom concerning each individuals eternal fate, but when they learn to belong only to Christ.

LOL! Yes, I agree with you there. Liberty of Conscience is an issue of "first things, first." Human beings can't be forced to comply with certain behaviors and thereby be doing them rightly. You can't force someone to "sing psalms with grace in the heart" -- there's no shoehorning grace in by force.

So churches that try to practice worship or even their own faith without a depth of understanding what's achieved by the understanding, the will, and then submission -- they falter on Liberty of Conscience.

Grant me one caveat, though, that the church does have certain authority to organize, order and regulate worship. It's well under authority. But yes, lobbying to a certain kind of worship because someone you respect argues for it ... that breaks liberty of conscience. As an elder you would have to understand it and have other people at least understand it as well, if not finding it agreeable and acceptable.

It can happen in any church. It just seemed to be more apparent sometimes.