What is the difference between Anabaptists and Primitive Baptists?

888Ariel · Nov 1, 2006

Do Anabaptists have much the same belief system as do Primitive Baptists?
Primitive Baptists, in my present understanding, do not anticipate another coming of Jesus. Neither do they believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. I have friends who are Primitive Baptists; they are good, stalwart, men and women of God. But their doctrine is strange to me.

What say the Anabaptists? Are they similar?

Danfrey · Nov 1, 2006

This Anabaptist is looking for Jesus to return and believes that the spiritual gifts continue today. Saying that, let me emphasize that I don't believe that much of what trys to pass as spiritual gifts in our time is authentic.

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

What I know is that Primitive Baptists do not require, and in fact have strong distaste for, their ministers to be educated beyond the level of ability to just read the Bible and maybe say some study helps and classic Christian literature. I'd venture that is the near the same with Amish and Hutterites.

Probably most Mennonites, however, value more advanced education. There are associated Mennonite colleges and universities and a seminary. Some Mennonites are hardcore scholars with terminal degrees in a wide array of fields, and most of these combine their scholarship with ardent activism for their views.

For example, in a college class (at a "secular" honors college), Philosophies of Punishment, I focused closely on the views of a Mennonite author on Restorative Justice, Howard Zehr, and advocated in most instances for a restorative justice view up against alternate views in papers. Zehr is a prof at Eastern Mennonite University. After I read his views, Zehr, basically the father of the whole modern restorative justice field, was very gracious to patiently let me, a complete Christian stranger, pick his brain with some very hard questions by email for several weeks. He knew his stuff and was often uniquely insightful, although he did not in my view adequately allow for the adjudication of Hegelian "just deserts" to offenders Paul would define as reprobate. But my point is that this helps show how Mennonites tend to much value higher education and often tie activism to their scholarship.

(Alas, I let you all know of another of my proclivities toward anabaptism).

Also, PB ministers are 100% "homegrown". They disdain the idea of bringing a new minister in from the outside, like a seminary grad. I'd venture that is the same or probably more so with Amish and Hutterites. Not sure how that works in Mennonite circles. Probably at least some allow non-homegrown folks to become ministers if the folks first get to know them a while.

Perhaps Menno can add some thoughts here and clarify and/or correct mine where needed.

Danfrey, I agree completely with your statement on the gifts of the Spirit.

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

From Grace Chapel Primitive Baptist Church's articles of faith:

9. We believe that water baptism and the Lord's Supper and Washing the Saints feet are church ordinances enjoined by the Gospel, to be observed by the Church until His second coming.

From Ebenezer Primitive Baptist Church:

Article 11. We believe that washing the saints feet was ordained by Jesus Christ to be done by His children in a church capacity until His second coming.

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From a PB FAQ page:

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Question: What is the attitude of Primitive Baptists towards tongues and other miraculous spiritual gifts?

Any true Christian should firmly believe in the possibility of miracles (Mt 17:19-20, Mk 9:23, Mk 11:23), and most prayerful Christians can witness to the fact that miracles do occur. However, scriptures and experience lead us to expect such miracles to be elicited by the general prayers of God's people rather than the workings of someone possessing a miraculous spiritual gift.
New Testament occurrences of miraculous gifts are almost always observed either in apostles or in those upon whom apostles had laid hands. The apostles had special gifts, and had the ability to confer them upon others. However, it appears that those receiving miraculous gifts from the apostles were not able to transmit them to third parties. Hence, Philip received special gifts from the apostles (Acts 6:5-6, Acts 8:5-8), but was unable to confer these same gifts upon the Samaritans (Acts 8:5-19). Since there are no apostles in the world today, any modern occurrences of extraordinary spiritual gifts would represent an exception to the scriptural pattern.
This is not to say that such exceptions are impossible, and it certainly is not intended to say that miracles can no longer happen. However, the scriptures lead us to expect such miracles to be elicited by the individual and collective prayers of God's people (Mt 17:19-20, Mk 9:23, Mk 11:23, Philip 4:6, Ja 5:13-15, I Jn 5:14-15).

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

Academic -- I appreciate higher learning, as well; but it's humbling for me to remind myself that Jesus did not call upon learned scholars and theologians to be his disciples, but simple hardworking men.

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

Adara said:
Academic -- I appreciate higher learning, as well; but it's humbling for me to remind myself that Jesus did not call upon learned scholars and theologians to be his disciples, but simple hardworking men.

Very true. But then again, they walked with Him in person. And the apostle Paul was a highly learned scholar and theologian.

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

Very true. But then again, they walked with Him in person.

But here is the wonderful mystery: He still walks with his followers, even now.

And the apostle Paul was a highly learned scholar and theologian.

Yes, he was. But even Paul, who was trained under the wise Gamaliel, acknowleged that all human learning is nothing to God.

Some Pauline quotes:

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Cor. 13:2)

"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus." (Gal. 1:11-17)

Also:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:18-25)

(bold and italics mine, obviously)

I once believed that, in a perfect world, all professing Christians would aspire to doctorates in divinity and be able to quote the Bible verbatim in the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. But now I realise that God has a better plan, and that He has used Paul to teach me intellectual humility.

Danfrey · Nov 2, 2006

I would lean toward the view that too much education distorts the simple truth of scripture. Far too often those with intials before their names go to great lengths to prove that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

Danfrey · Nov 2, 2006

ACADEMIC said:
Danfrey, I agree completely with your statement on the gifts of the Spirit.

Don't make a habit of completely agreeing with me. It gets pretty boring around here when we all agree on a subject.

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

Adara,

I did not obtain a high school diploma until age 32 and used to quote those same passages all the time.

I have since discovered that there is a huge difference between sanctified, anointed learning and what Paul had in mind in 1 Cor. 1:18-25 with the terms "wise" and "wisdom of the world" and "philosopher of this age", etc. Studying the New Testament world, including the Greek philosophy Paul was attacking in the passage, would help one see this and move one beyond what you are doing with the text, which is reading into it.

Do some replace God with "learning"? Indeed! That was Paul's point. At the same time, there is nothing inconsistent about sanctified learning and "a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him". That also is the point.

Human learning is nothing to God? If by that you mean He will not regard a learned person more than an unlearned person, i.e., He does not treat a learned and an unlearned person by a different moral standard, you are right. And no one will be saved by intellectual acumen, obviously. All humans will stand naked before Him to whom we must give account. But you should ask, say, a Christian missionary surgeon or linguist sometime whether or not God uses his or her learning.

If you are still skeptical, how about we do this.

1. We will have Danfrey select one Old Testament and one New Testament Bible passage and create a thread about them.

2. You will then teach the passage to us using solely the passages and the Spirit of God.

3. I will then teach the same passages to us using the passages, knowledge of Biblical history, cultures, languages, archeology, etc., and the Spirit of God.

Someone once said to John Wesley, "God told me to tell you that He don't need none o' yer fancy learning to do His work."

Wesley replied, "I'm sure that what you say is true, but it is equally true that He doesn't need your ignorance, either."

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

Human learning is nothing to God?

Yes.

I suppose we need to define human knowledge versus spiritual so as to not be at cross-purposes.

Human knowledge = any truths that we feel we have learned apart from God.

Spiritual knowledge = any truths that we have learned and acknowledged as God's, as revealed via His Spirit.

So when you say, "I will then teach the same passages to us using the passages, knowledge of Biblical history, cultures, languages, archeology, etc., and the Spirit of God." am I correct in thinking that you view the Spirit as an additional tool for understanding instead of the very lens in which all learning must pass through in order for Truth to be seen?

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

You are presenting something of a false dichotomy. Sir Hans Adolf Krebs may not have felt that his discovery of the Krebs Cycle was under the guidance of God, but the doctrine of common grace explains that it was. He discovered what God made.

The Christian, however, should undertake all learning and teaching, irrespective of subject, through the lens of God's revealed revelation in the Word he gave and world He made, under the guidance of the Spirit of God.

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

Academic wrote:

You are presenting something of a false dichotomy.

No, I was merely trying to clear up our definitions.

The Christian, however, should undertake all learning and teaching, irrespective of subject, through the lens of God's revealed revelation in the Word he gave and world He made, under the guidance of the Spirit of God.

Yes. Not in addition to, but via the Spirit.

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

No, through the lens of God's revealed revelation in the Word he gave and world He made, under the guidance of the Spirit of God.

His objective revealed word and world should come first. Placing our perceptions of the Spirit of God first is to live by the very shaky ground of subjectivism.

oliveplants · Nov 2, 2006

Danfrey said:
Don't make a habit of completely agreeing with me. It gets pretty boring around here when we all agree on a subject.

Well, not to be completely boring, but even I, with my tongue-talking smily face guy, agree with you.

Adara · Nov 2, 2006

No, through the lens of God's revealed revelation in the Word he gave and world He made, under the guidance of the Spirit of God.

His objective revealed word and world should come first. Placing our perceptions of the Spirit of God first is to live by the very shaky ground of subjectivism

http://www.christianforums.com/Subjectivism

*Nod*

Objectivism, subjectivism. Evidentialist, Presuppositionalist. I for one am not very enthusiastic about discussions involving fideism and the like, so I hope you don't mind if I gently back out of this thread. Not due to mental capitulation, mind, but out of weariness of theological discussion.

If you feel that I am in error, I would appreciate your prayers on the matter.

Thanks,

-A

MrJim · Nov 2, 2006

I know nothing of the primitive baptists so I've nothing to add there.

I will say the amongst some mennonite folks the education going on at EMU isn't always representative of solid biblical teaching. The late George R Brunk II had plenty to say about that, even though his son was (is?) a wheel at the university (it was just EMC back then....).

ACADEMIC · Nov 2, 2006

Adara:

Sure, no problem. But were you not the one who began this discussion involving your apparent fideism and questioning the legitimacy of learning for the Christian?

Best to you and yours.

888Ariel · Nov 7, 2006

Danfrey said:
This Anabaptist is looking for Jesus to return and believes that the spiritual gifts continue today. Saying that, let me emphasize that I don't believe that much of what trys to pass as spiritual gifts in our time is authentic.

Danfrey, your answer was succinct. By stating that Anabaptists believe that Jesus will return and that the gifts operate even today, you infer that Primitive Baptists do not agree?

888Ariel · Nov 7, 2006

Adara said:
From Grace Chapel Primitive Baptist Church's articles of faith:

From Ebenezer Primitive Baptist Church:

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From a PB FAQ page:

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Adara, since you apparently have access to source documents, what do Primitive Baptists believe about the Milleniel Reign of Jesus, and do they believe that he is coming back again to rule in this world?

What is the difference between Anabaptists and Primitive Baptists?

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