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I think that is a pre-requisiteLotar said:As far as I know, all Protestants accept the first four councils.
Lotar said:First, the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as the catholic Church that originally set the NT cannon.
Sola scriptura does not exclude the use of tradition. All it says is that tradition must agree with scripture and that all required doctrine must have a scriptural basis.
Here's a little information about the whole deal.
http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/
I cannot speak for all protestants here, because when we get into Mary not all of them hold the same stand point. The Lutheran Church does infact honor her, however it holds back from making her the center of attention. We don't put as much store in her abilities, because we reason that we all have Christ's ear as much as she does.RhetorTheo said:Okay, so do Protestants believe that the moral teachings of the early church fathers (the "Church of Old") can be relied upon for doctrine, such as the role of Mary and what constitutes scripture, but at some later date the Church became corrupted and it can no longer be relied upon? Among the teachings in the "Church of Old," how do you know which parts to believe when there is a conflict between the bishops? And how does this mesh with the doctrine of "sola scriptura"?
We agree with thier form, they weren't just unilateral papal actions. We agree that the early church was a sincere church. We agree that they were a pious church. However we do realize that the church lost it's way. We accept thier authority not by just apostolic succession but by thier faith.RhetorTheo said:I was not aware that all Protestants accept the first four church councils. That doesn't seem to be consistent with Sola Scriptura to me. Do you mean that you accept the authority of the first four church councils, or that you just happen to agree with the first four councils?
I really don't know enough about the councils to elaborate.ChoirDir said:I would like to ask what Protestants disagree with in the 5, 6, and 7th councils?
Lotar said:The Lutheran stance is that all seven are authoritive in as much as they are compatible with scripture.
The NT canon was based on who wrote it.RhetorTheo said:Okay, I see how you can use tradition under Sola Scriptura, assuming it agrees with scripture and has a scriptural basis. But in the "Church of Old," before the NT canon was finalized, the only scripture was the OT, and not only do the NT teachings not always accord with the OT, they often contradict it ("You have heard it said... but I say unto you...") Thus, under this doctrine, you would have to reject the NT canon because the early Church was establishing new doctrine that contradicted the scripture (ie, the OT). So, I still don't understand how this supports belief in the NT canon without a belief in the Catholic Church.
I can't really speak for Protestants as a whole. The Lutherans rely on Church teachings up until 1054 and then from 1513 on. But, the teachings of any man, even the Church fathers, are fallible so they cannot be taken as authoritive on their own. Scripture is the standard by which all tradition must be measured against.You distinguish between the catholic Church and the Catholic Church, but the Catholic and Orthodox churches today are collectively what you call the "catholic Church." I'm not sure what you mean by that, unless you mean that Protestants rely on all teachings of the Church up until 1054 but not after?
Lotar said:The NT canon was based on who wrote it.
I can't really speak for Protestants as a whole. The Lutherans rely on Church teachings up until 1054 and then from 1513 on. But, the teachings of any man, even the Church fathers, are fallible so they cannot be taken as authoritive on their own. Scripture is the standard by which all tradition must be measured against.
The new testament didn't contradict the Old, it fulfilled it!RhetorTheo said:Okay, I see how you can use tradition under Sola Scriptura, assuming it agrees with scripture and has a scriptural basis. But in the "Church of Old," before the NT canon was finalized, the only scripture was the OT, and not only do the NT teachings not always accord with the OT, they often contradict it ("You have heard it said... but I say unto you...") Thus, under this doctrine, you would have to reject the NT canon because the early Church was establishing new doctrine that contradicted the scripture (ie, the OT). So, I still don't understand how this supports belief in the NT canon without a belief in the Catholic Church.
You distinguish between the catholic Church and the Catholic Church, but the Catholic and Orthodox churches today are collectively what you call the "catholic Church." I'm not sure what you mean by that, unless you mean that Protestants rely on all teachings of the Church up until 1054 but not after?
Well, if that's true, then it doesn't speak very highly of tradition either. It seems to me that those living before the sack of Rome and the later sack of Constantinople would have much more information to go off of than today's scolars.RhetorTheo said:How do you know that the early Church wasn't fallible when it selected which books were scripture? It wasn't entirely clear who wrote them back then, and still isn't today. There were gospels with apostles' names on them rejected, and many scholars question who wrote the gospels. I read one scholar who said the only thing that can be said with certainty about the authorship of the gospels is that none of them were written by the person whose name it bears.
Q. Since Lutherans believe that authority comes from "scripture alone," and they view scripture as inerrant, would Lutherans be considered "fundamentalists?"
A. The term "fundamentalist" is used in a variety of ways and has a number of possible definitions, so whether or not it may be applied in some sense to LCMS Lutherans depends largely on how it is defined. Generally speaking, however, LCMS Lutherans have disassociated themselves from this term as it has been historically used in Protestantism because Lutherans approach the issue of the authority of Scripture quite differently than most "fundamentalist" Protestant groups and churches.
For example, for most "fundamentalists," acceptance of Scripture's authority comes first, and faith in Christ is based on faith in the Bible's inerrancy. For Lutherans, the reverse is true: faith in Christ comes first as a miraculous work of God's Spirit through the means of grace. Our view of the Bible then results from our faith in the Gospel.
It follows from this that for Lutherans, acceptance of Scripture's authority is a matter of faith, not of "proof" at the level of sheer intellect. Accordingly, Lutherans (unlike many fundamentalist groups) do not attempt to "demonstrate" the inerrancy of Scripture on the basis of historical or rational evidence or arguments. Instead, Lutherans focus on proclaiming the Gospel and trust that faith in the Bible will follow from faith in Christ. For Lutherans the Gospel is always of primary concern and is viewed as the central message of the Scriptures, while fundamentalists tend to view the Gospel simply as one of several "fundamental" truths (of equal value) contained in the Bible.
Assumeably, I think that almost all Protestant churches accept the first seven councils because, they even accept 'filioque' which is not accepted in the east. Generally all protestants up to that point have retained the Church's teachings. I haven't extensivly read the later three councils so I am not sure what they are about (Like Lotar) but I am assuming that we do agree to them, for we all agree on 'filioque'.ChoirDir said:Rhetor, I think the answer lies in that Protestants only accept the first 4 EC's. The Bible as we know it was formulated by then. Most will agree that the Bible was canonized around 400AD. With all Churches that have divided there is a point that each do not recognize the other's source of authority. This can be seen by the split between Catholics and Orthodox. Orthodox only recognize the 7 ECs. But the reformation came later than 1054 or 451 (4th EC). So if the Protestant recognize the 1st 4 EC's then it would be logical as to why they accept the Bible. What doesn't make sense is the rejection of any councils which occured up to the split.
It is pretty arrogant to call the NT Catholic, don't you think?RhetorTheo said:If you are not Catholic, do you accept the books of the Catholic New Testament as scripture because the Catholic Church says so? If you accept those exact same books as scripture for another reason, what reason is that? If you don't accept some of the Catholic New Testament as scripture (eg, some reject Revelation), what books do you reject and why? And do you accept any books as scripture outside of the books of the Catholic New Testament (eg, some accept the Gospel of Thomas or A Course in Miracles)?
Thanks!
I agree, I don't understand why some just outright reject the other three. One thing to understand is that we view councils differently.ChoirDir said:Rhetor, I think the answer lies in that Protestants only accept the first 4 EC's. The Bible as we know it was formulated by then. Most will agree that the Bible was canonized around 400AD. With all Churches that have divided there is a point that each do not recognize the other's source of authority. This can be seen by the split between Catholics and Orthodox. Orthodox only recognize the 7 ECs. But the reformation came later than 1054 or 451 (4th EC). So if the Protestant recognize the 1st 4 EC's then it would be logical as to why they accept the Bible. What doesn't make sense is the rejection of any councils which occured up to the split.
8. Luther on Councils. M. Luther* subordinated councils to the Word of God, which is self-sufficient (WA 50, 614615, 631). The truth of the Gospel cannot be est. by councils (WA-T 3, 149). The Holy Spirit is not bound by conciliar decisions (WA 15, 584; 39 I, 186). Since articles of faith, doctrine, and works existed before councils, the latter cannot est. or decree doctrine, but, as all men, must show that what they say is in harmony with God's Word (WA 21, 471; WA-T 4, 457458); if their pronouncements show such harmony, they are accepted for the Word's sake (WA 8, 5758; 10 lb. 337; 17 II, 29; 39 I, 187; 50, 551552, 604, 618). As individual mem, so also councils erred. (WA 2, 405406; WA-Br 1, 470471; WA-Br 3, 374)
Luther pointed out that the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of believers, and if council mems. are selected from the people of God, there is a true council ruled by the Spirit (WA 50, 643644). Luther favored a free (WA 54, 206207) Christian (WA 54, 212213) council (WA 47, 127; 50, 288 to 289; 52, 760; 54, 208). Such a true council is a gathering of pious people for the preservation among them of the pure Word (WA 51, 529). The duty of judging doctrine is a matter for all Christians (WA 45, 380), and hence councils of such Christians also judge doctrine and works and arrange externals (WA-T 3, 694695). Thus Luther opposed the pope-in-council (head and mems.) idea of Romanists (WA 52, 760; 54, 206209).
Interesting that you bring up the Filioque because at the 3rd Council Ephesus the following was approved.JVAC said:Assumeably, I think that almost all Protestant churches accept the first seven councils because, they even accept 'filioque' which is not accepted in the east. Generally all protestants up to that point have retained the Church's teachings. I haven't extensivly read the later three councils so I am not sure what they are about (Like Lotar) but I am assuming that we do agree to them, for we all agree on 'filioque'.
Most Protestants don't accept the other three. Lutherans do, but we do not accept everything from them as authoritive, like veneration of icons. Any part of the councils that are based in scripture are authoritive.JVAC said:Assumeably, I think that almost all Protestant churches accept the first seven councils because, they even accept 'filioque' which is not accepted in the east. Generally all protestants up to that point have retained the Church's teachings. I haven't extensivly read the later three councils so I am not sure what they are about (Like Lotar) but I am assuming that we do agree to them, for we all agree on 'filioque'.
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