What is suffering?

[roach]

What is a christian view of suffering (as in "eternal suffering") in the afterlife? Does it have any of the same characteristics as mortal suffering? I ask because I've read about discoveries in cognitive neuroscience that point to many parts of what we experience as "self" to have direct causes in physical events in the brain. This includes the subjective experience of continuity of time, being in control of one's actions (free will), being anchored to a body, etc.,. Each of these experiences can be altered by simply affecting a corresponding part of the brain. Likewise, the subjective experiences of pain and suffering are rooted in such physical events, and these can be changed so that a person can not just avoid feeling them, but be "rewired" to receive positive feedback in the brain. Even emotional pain and suffering in the form of stress, guilt, depression, etc., can be found to have similar physical causes. This evidence makes me wonder on what basis could one claim there will be suffering in an afterlife when suffering is a physical phenomena.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well the "physical" could be a computer simulation, or we could in reality be wired up to lab equipment and appearances be only that. Or maybe God can do what he pleases and simply recreate the person if he wants to. After all, which would be easier to create, a universe or a brain?

 

[roach]

Well the "physical" could be a computer simulation, or we could in reality be wired up to lab equipment and appearances be only that. Or maybe God can do what he pleases and simply recreate the person if he wants to. After all, which would be easier to create, a universe or a brain?

I'm not asking about solipsism, "experience machines", or about god doing what he wants. These are all equally likely, yet do nothing to advance understanding. If you really need a formal definition of physical, lets just go with a standard dictionary definition ( having material existence : perceptible especially through the senses and subject to the laws of nature; any aspect of an object or substance that can be measured or perceived without changing its identity ) I'm only curious as to what relation physical pain and suffering have to the christian concept of non-physical pain and suffering.

Also, it seems like it'd be just as easy for god to create brains as universes, since I'm assuming you believe in some god-like ability to create things as being mysterious/unknowable/miraculous/etc. I grant it'd be easier for a human being to create a brain than the universe, but you'll have to explain how it's different for god... nevermind, you can't.

 

[AlexBP]

I'm no expert but I was under the impression that claims of certain conscious experiences being tied to physical events in the brain have been fraying for some time. However, that's not really relevant to Christian views of the afterlife. As Christians we hold that humans beings are incarnate spirits. This is in opposition to the 'ghost in the machine' view, which holds that the spirit in some distinct entity dwelling within the body, and that at death the body somehow releases the spirit and it flies away to Heaven. By "incarnate spirits", we mean that God creates the spirit, and then the body grows with it but is fully integrated with this spirit. Hence during the earthly life the two cannot be separated. 'Out-of-body experiences' and other such things are impossible.

When we die, our earthly body will die and God will create for us a new heavenly body. The details of the process are a subject of theological speculation but, in my view, nothing can be known about that. But the main answer to your question is that there is a body after death; that has always been a part of Christian theology.

 

[roach]

I'm no expert but I was under the impression that claims of certain conscious experiences being tied to physical events in the brain have been fraying for some time. However, that's not really relevant to Christian views of the afterlife. As Christians we hold that humans beings are incarnate spirits. This is in opposition to the 'ghost in the machine' view, which holds that the spirit in some distinct entity dwelling within the body, and that at death the body somehow releases the spirit and it flies away to Heaven. By "incarnate spirits", we mean that God creates the spirit, and then the body grows with it but is fully integrated with this spirit. Hence during the earthly life the two cannot be separated. 'Out-of-body experiences' and other such things are impossible.

When we die, our earthly body will die and God will create for us a new heavenly body. The details of the process are a subject of theological speculation but, in my view, nothing can be known about that. But the main answer to your question is that there is a body after death; that has always been a part of Christian theology.

Actually, there is a rapidly growing body of evidence for consciousness being explained by neuronal events and current research directly addresses these phenomena (V.S Ramachandran and Hubbard most notably in the last few years).

So there are two points I would like to understand better. When you say that human beings are incarnate spirits, does this mean they are not able to affect physical matter? The description of a spirit "integrated" with a body does not make sense to me if this is the case. Does the spirit direct the movements of the body? What interaction/relationship do they actually have?

Also, what does it mean when you say "out-of-body" experiences are impossible? Does this mean that this type of experience is impossible? Or maybe you mean that conscious experiences are distinct from the spirit?

 

[Jazer]

Even emotional pain and suffering in the form of stress, guilt, depression, etc., can be found to have similar physical causes. This evidence makes me wonder on what basis could one claim there will be suffering in an afterlife when suffering is a physical phenomena.

That would be a violation of the law of physics. Everything has an expression. If something can not be expressed in one area then it is going to have to be expressed somewhere else. That is why we have the theory of parellel universes. Even if you die in one universe you may live to be 100 in a parellel universe.

 

[juvenissun]

What is a christian view of suffering (as in "eternal suffering") in the afterlife? Does it have any of the same characteristics as mortal suffering? I ask because I've read about discoveries in cognitive neuroscience that point to many parts of what we experience as "self" to have direct causes in physical events in the brain. This includes the subjective experience of continuity of time, being in control of one's actions (free will), being anchored to a body, etc.,. Each of these experiences can be altered by simply affecting a corresponding part of the brain. Likewise, the subjective experiences of pain and suffering are rooted in such physical events, and these can be changed so that a person can not just avoid feeling them, but be "rewired" to receive positive feedback in the brain. Even emotional pain and suffering in the form of stress, guilt, depression, etc., can be found to have similar physical causes. This evidence makes me wonder on what basis could one claim there will be suffering in an afterlife when suffering is a physical phenomena.

Many examples can illustrate that.

Try to ask people who are fighting for a divorce about their feeling. Imagine that the judge sentenced: Case denied, you two must stay together "forever". That is a example of suffering.

 

[roach]

That would be a violation of the law of physics. Everything has an expression. If something can not be expressed in one area then it is going to have to be expressed somewhere else. That is why we have the theory of parellel universes. Even if you die in one universe you may live to be 100 in a parellel universe.

What law of physics are you referring to? And how would it have been broken if emotions and sensations are (as I'm claiming) physical in nature? I'm not invoking anything so utterly mind-boggling as multi-universes to explain the mind. Actually, I don't know why people keep bringing up universes.

What do you mean by "everything has an expression?" I am left with thinking you are referring to what I said about emotional pain and suffering, etc.,. That would really not make any sense, though so elaborate on this, please.

 

[Jazer]

What is suffering?

Suffering is a result of something being out of balance or out of harmony with itself.

Sometimes even if it is rare, extreams can balance themselves out. The Greeks in their Theater had Comedy and Tragedy and they felt a need to maintain a balance between the two. Perhaps atheist and theist feel a need to maintain some sort of a balance somewhere.

 

[roach]

Many examples can illustrate that.

Try to ask people who are fighting for a divorce about their feeling. Imagine that the judge sentenced: Case denied, you two must stay together "forever". That is a example of suffering.

Is this what you would consider a common christian view of eternal suffering in the afterlife? I fully agree, by the way, marriage is a form of suffering. A bit like slavery if you ask me...

 

[roach]

Suffering is a result of something being out of balance or out of harmony with itself.

Sometimes even if it is rare, extreams can balance themselves out. The Greeks in their Theater had Comedy and Tragedy and they felt a need to maintain a balance between the two. Perhaps atheist and theist feel a need to maintain some sort of a balance somewhere.

I'm interested in that "something" that is out of balance, as you put it. But I do sorta get the idea that you see suffering as being essentially relative; if it's in the brain, it's physical but if it's in the spirit, it's something else. Is that close?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I'm only curious as to what relation physical pain and suffering have to the christian concept of non-physical pain and suffering.

I am not sure that it is necessary to be a dualist if one wants to be a Christian. My philosophy of mind is physicalist, but I am just open to religious experience and belief on a more casual level.

I grant it'd be easier for a human being to create a brain than the universe, but you'll have to explain how it's different for god... nevermind, you can't.

I could come up with an answer, but it would not be a scientific one.

 

[chilehed]

...This evidence makes me wonder on what basis could one claim there will be suffering in an afterlife when suffering is a physical phenomena.

I've been a Christian all my life, and I've never heard anyone claim that we won't have a body in hell.

 

[roach]

I am not sure that it is necessary to be a dualist if one wants to be a Christian. My philosophy of mind is physicalist, but I am just open to religious experience and belief on a more casual level.



I could come up with an answer, but it would not be a scientific one.

Wouldn't religious experience, belief and being open to belief fall into the category of mind processes or physical states of the mind? If you would agree with this, what is the thing that "suffers" in the afterlife?

 

[roach]

I've been a Christian all my life, and I've never heard anyone claim that we won't have a body in hell.

Could you explain this a little better? I'm assuming you don't think it's a body made of atoms, molecules, cells, etc.,

 

[juvenissun]

Could you explain this a little better? I'm assuming you don't think it's a body made of atoms, molecules, cells, etc.,

A body which angels (or ghosts) have.

If you want it a little bit scientific, may be some type of energy, such as the dark matter ?

 

[chilehed]

Could you explain this a little better? I'm assuming you don't think it's a body made of atoms, molecules, cells, etc.,

The standard Christian belief is that we'll have physical bodies, just as we do now.

There are some who claim that we'll have "spirit bodies" in heaven, which as far as I can tell is a denial that we'll have physical bodies. So I guess that would mean that they would say that we don't have bodies in hell, either. But in any case they're in the minority.

 

[roach]

A body which angels (or ghosts) have.

If you want it a little bit scientific, may be some type of energy, such as the dark matter ?

OK, then does this mean that there is a similar ghost brain structure that functions like physical brain structures, in turn allowing a ghost body to have sensations? Also, from what I know of dark matter, it doesn't seem likely you think ghost bodies have similar characteristics because all the evidence for dark matter comes from it's observed effects on gravity. If this is merely speculation on your part, can you refer me to any references that deal with this matter? I'm still having a difficult time understanding how christians characterize the soul, or at least what characteristics are agreed upon.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Suffering is a result of something being out of balance or out of harmony with itself.

Sometimes even if it is rare, extreams can balance themselves out. The Greeks in their Theater had Comedy and Tragedy and they felt a need to maintain a balance between the two. Perhaps atheist and theist feel a need to maintain some sort of a balance somewhere.

Pain is the awareness that damage is taking place in one's tissues, so that this insult can be alleviated or avoided. It's a survival mechanism.

Suffering is to be subjected to pain, often needlessly.

 

[roach]

The standard Christian belief is that we'll have physical bodies, just as we do now.

There are some who claim that we'll have "spirit bodies" in heaven, which as far as I can tell is a denial that we'll have physical bodies. So I guess that would mean that they would say that we don't have bodies in hell, either. But in any case they're in the minority.

I see, the more accepted belief is that there is a different, still physical, body in the afterlife. Does this mean that heaven and hell are actual places where physical laws are obeyed?