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Presbyterian Continuist

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So, just to clarify: Are you a full-time Christian worker, supported by a church or organisation for your income, or are you in employment supporting yourself and your family with a regular weekly wage? Just askin'.
 
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Andy centek

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Blessings:

A very good question! What is sin. My opinion;which may not mean much, is this. Sin entered into THIS WORD by Satan deceiving Eve. However, this is not as straight forward as it seems. I am currently writing a book on Genesis and the creation therein that discusses this and many other items. However, I must keep this answer much shorter here.

Sin came by the disobedience to God command, do not do; and Man did it anyway. This then makes sin, in it's simple form, disobedience to The Creator, Elohim. That there was given a way the sinfulness of mankind is by the turning from sinfulness and following after Jesus Christ teachings; which He received from His Father. "I have given Them Your word."

Again, some chose to follow after the teachings of Jesus and most did not; they preferred the sinful life. Just as the Man and Women found the things rejected by God as desirable, so does man today; that is, for the most part. Even the Denominations of today do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostle Paul.

This appears to make sin the rejection of the spiritually good thing and acceptance of the spiritual bad things. The first command in Genesis was: "Let there be light". Not sunlight, rather spiritual light. So sin is the following after the darkness of spiritual evil things and not following the spiritually things called good by God and His Christ. This of course applies only to those seeking to walk in the spiritual light, for those walking in spiritual darkness will continue to do so unless God choses to make a person one of His Elect.
One of the very bad things that occurs today in so-called Christian churches is men who call men for the so-called altar call to be spiritually saved. Is there seen anywhere in the scriptures of one being called to an altar to be saved? No, in no way. This can be called sinfulness in itself. Why? Because man set it up and it denies Christ calling into the body of Christ; thereby becoming one of God's Elect.

Much more could be stated, but I end this here.May the truth seeker seek deeper for themselves.

Andy Centek
 
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Wordkeeper

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So, just to clarify: Are you a full-time Christian worker, supported by a church or organisation for your income, or are you in employment supporting yourself and your family with a regular weekly wage? Just askin'.
Actually i'm a retired businessman looking to make friends with those in eternal dwellings with unrighteous mammon so that when it runs out, they will welcome me into those eternal dwellings. Any idea where they can be located?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Actually i'm a retired businessman looking to make friends with those in eternal dwellings with unrighteous mammon so that when it runs out, they will welcome me into those eternal dwellings. Any idea where they can be located?
I'm a retired school teacher and Court Victim Advisor, supporting our daughter who thinks I am her bank whenever she needs it. Jesus said that in heaven there are many mansions and He has gone to prepare a place for us. I guess that until then. we are wandering pilgrims seeking a city that is not in this world.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Ha! Ha! Tell me about it!

You can see that it is God's time to call. We just have to be ready. And even the call is not to cut all ties to the world but to act in a loyal way to God. Even asking for terms of peace, extensions of deadlines, is a loyal act.

BTW, the city is Christ.
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi

Does this mean when people do morally bad deeds without knowing they are wrong they that is not sin then?
If sin is different for each person how am I supposed to know what is and isn't sin for me? Mostly the answer to this question comes down to looking at scripture, but doesn't that mean it is given by scripture and simply isn't different for every person?
If you say it's what my faith can handle then isn't that like saying that I can do whatever I feel okay with and that isn't sin for me? This surely feel like a slippery slope then.
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi, thanks for your answer.

Thank you for standing up for your view point even though you understand it is generally not agreed upon.
I think one possible reason for a differing stance might be Acts 15:10-21
I am however not a good scholar of the 613 laws of the old testament to the point that I can really debate the details here.
However perhaps a simple question is if there is a law (or might be a law) in one of these 613 OT laws that are immoral by our modern understanding of morality in the church, should we still follow it? Or are their some criteria by which we can remove some of these laws?

Regarding your second point around Romans 5:13.
If you believe that the law is written on their hearts and that this law is indeed captured in the 613 OT laws I am struggling to put this together. Surely there are many laws in the OT that nobody would ever naturally come to from a "written on my heart" point of view?

The other question I have about this law written on our hearts is that without being told about God (Yahweh the christian/jewish God) we are unlikely to worship him out of a natural tendency thereby the gentile was guaranteed to be in disagreement with at least one of the ten commandments surely?
So even though they might do some moral/right things... they ultimately still sin and are condemned.
Paul merely shows perhaps that people aren't necessarily totally evil when without God?
 
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Marcaunon

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So, just to clarify: Are you a full-time Christian worker, supported by a church or organisation for your income, or are you in employment supporting yourself and your family with a regular weekly wage? Just askin'.

Hi Oscar

Unfortunately this argument is going close to where it can be interpreted as ad hominem.

I think Wordkeeper has made his/her viewpoint fairly clear by now and if we can't debate/argue that with scripture/logic I think sometimes we just need to let it rest.

I you guys want to discuss the reasons for the success/failures of the modern church vs the ancient church we can do that in a different thread perhaps?

However for @Wordkeeper:
I would still like that you commit to a simpler definition of what sin is as I've asked in a previous post to you if that is possible?
Are you defining sin as being all action that is not "devoted to telling His children what He has revealed and confirmed by raising Jesus from the dead" ?

Also please provide biblical reference why you believe God is obligated (legally compelled?) to provide food and shelter for us and how you reconcile that viewpoint with the reality (at least from my point of view) that there are Christians without food and shelter?
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi and thank you for your answer.

I think Matt 19:16 is a very good scripture to show Jesus's position on the idea of "good".

And yes there are a whole teaching I believe about the old vs new covenant which I still want to understand a lot better in time
In the end my understanding is pretty much none of the OT laws apply to Christians (after Jesus), not just those that Jesus specifically disregarded.

So I understand from what you are saying that sin is an action taken against the "law"?
If the bible claims that the law of Moses was given by God?... why was it not totally right? Did God get it wrong the first time? Or did he change his mind later about certain things?
So all the people that lived before Jesus was given a wrong law...
One can even go back and ask what about before the law of Moses.. what "law" where those people suppose to live by and by what will they be judged?
 
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Wordkeeper

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Notice that Paul asked the Athenians to repent, turn away from idol worship, working for self, to serving God by doing what He created man for, to be like Him, be a blessing to the world. All actions stemming from idol worship, serving impotent gods for perishable gain, inevitably lead to sin:

Jeremiah 7:8-11
8“Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9“Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations? 11“Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” declares the LORD.

Romans 2:17-24
17But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.


Matthew 6:25-33
25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Acts 17:25-28
25Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things.26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
 
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Marcaunon

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God gave us the ten commandments.
He even wrote it in stone.

To be more exact he gave the Isrealites the 10 commandments... and I think 613 other laws.
Unfortunately this is too simple an answer, sin is simply not (just) "disobeying the 10 commandments"
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi discipler,

This seems like a more complete viewpoint of trying to unify the ideas of moral sin, original sin and even our spiritual condition.
I even like how this explain the idea that we are still "sinners" even after being saved.

Those who voluntarily commit the former outer or outward sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking will be cursed by God with a sad and short life on earth.(DEUT.28:15, 1COR.11:30, 1JOHN.5:16)

Obviously my personal experience does not really matter as an argument but I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of experiential reality of this statement in the world... yet.
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi

I wanted to reply on this at least still, the thread is getting rather long, but your post put forward some new ideas I have not thought of much previously.

I think you clearly reject the idea that sin is not obeying the law as you seem to say that Jesus clearly did disobey the law yet he in the end is "blameless" thereby being able to be the sacrificial lamb.

What you are suggesting here in the Jesus was born imperfect I don't think is inline with the general teachings of the christian majority as I know it. I would love to see someone else comment. Maybe it's just me that was taught incorrectly, after all Jesus was also man.
btw I wonder if you are aware of the non-canon gospel of Jesus' childhood? (off-topic sorry)

The idea that sin can separate us from God is also an idea I think is not commonly held? Perhaps that scripture must be interpreted more within context? Surely Paul said "nothing can separate us..." ?

I would love to see someone else comment on these ideas about "maturation" in regards to "sin"...
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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"...everything that does not come from faith is sin." Romans 14:23
This links in with the Scripture in John, "This is the will of God that you believe on Him whom God has sent." So not to believe on Christ is contrary to the will of God. And if anything contrary to the will of God is sin, then sin can be reliably defined as a refusal to believe on Christ.
 
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discipler7

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Obviously my personal experience does not really matter as an argument but I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of experiential reality of this statement in the world... yet.
Wasn't Saul of Tarsus(= later apostle Paul) struck blind temporarily by Jesus Christ because of his sins/persecutions against the early Jewish Christians.? And later ...

ACTS.9: =
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
 
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GUANO

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Sin is error, impurity.

It is ingrained in almost all things that we think and do. Only God can see the purity of spirit (intention) which, along with the sacrifice of Christ covers error.

Forgive them, for they know not what they do. That is "sin"... Purposely committing evil deeds are things that require rectification.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Marcaunom. What is sin? In Matthew 22:35-40: Jesus tells us: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with heart, soul and mind, the second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and Jesus died out of love for us. I have answered this question before, and sin is all we do or say without LOVE. God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. Love is very catching, and the Bible tells us:Give up all selfish wishes and wants. Start loving and caring for each other, we are God`s men and women.In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive, we ask for love and compassion, the wae thank God and let love and joy and peace take over. God will bless us greatly, and God will bless us and kep blessing us. Satan will run away from all love and his followers will too, let us love and care and be the men and the women which God wants. I keep saying this with love, Marcaunom. Greetings from Emmy.
 
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Marcaunon

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Hi Emmy,

Yes I did see your first post in #31, I just can't really respond to every post unfortunately.


Firstly you talk a lot about things that are not really on topic I think.
You've also made some assumptions about me it seems.

Anyways:
So you are basically saying Sin is when we DO things not out of Love.

What you are saying is therefore different from what many other people have mentioned regarding the original sin and that we are essentially born in sin, unless you feel in some way what we do as babies is not out of love and are therefore sinning pretty much constantly for the first couple of years of our lives?
In fact how would a baby do something out of love, they live mostly on some very selfish instincts for food and sleep.

There are basically in philosophy two branches of morality, one says intention matter and the other says outcome matter. Your focus about love clearly points towards a viewpoint of the first that intention matters more than outcome.
If I hit my child out of a feeling of love because I think it is the right way of parenting then is that good or is that perhaps just child abuse?

What I trying to get at is that in general saying "we must love each other" is good, but from a theological perspective the answer is simply not that simple and I want to understand more.

I am glad you live by love, and I think that is a great way to approach daily living and something I would recommend for everyone everywhere even regardless of religion. And in my own way I'm trying to do this.
 
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