What is sin?

[Jimlarmore]

I've had some heated discussions with some of our brethern on another thread and most of it seems to be over my accusations of them sinning or practicing sin. If I am in error I will surely apologize and fully admit I am wrong. So if the mods will allow this short space to clear up some possible misconceptions I'd appreciate it.

First off, I want to let everyone know what my perception of the main problem is with this new covenant grace being taught now. It really smacks of once saved always saved even though those who embrace this new teaching will deny that. But I think the main problem is maybe my understanding of what sin actually is. To me sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. Another aspect of sin is if we know to do something and we don't do it then that is also sin, James 4:17. Now we could go on and on about what law is being referred to in 1 John 3:4 but I feel after a lot of study the law the Bible supports as being applicable here is the ten commandment laws.

Here is where the rub is and where I need to be corrected or educated on this. What is sin? If the teaching of the new covenant of grace says we don't have to worry about observing the Sabbath because we are now under the blood of Christ and not the law then what is sin now? Wouldn't that also apply to all the other ten commandments? Adultery, stealing, lying etc.? If this is true does sin even exist in our world anymore.

I don't blame somone for getting upset about being accused of practicing sin if they truely don't believe they are. However, if sin is the transgression of the law which is the ten commandments then not observing the Sabbath week after week is practicing sin isn't it? See where I am coming from? What other conclusion can I come up with here?

I don't want to spread controversy or discontent here at all. I just want every one to know what the truth of this is all about. There has to be some confusion in the SDA churches right now over this. The power of this new teaching is strong and if it is what I think it is right now ,its pointed directly at the remnant chosen of God for the last days. Either I am totally wrong about how the Bible defines sin or they are wrong.

So show me where I am wrong about this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

I feel they are picking up the old "once saved always saved" false belief and using it to do away with all the truths in the scriptures. But what they forget is they have God given freewill and can turn away from salvation, here is something I posted on another thread......

Is it possible for someone to have an encounter with God, become a Christian, but later to turn their back on God, no longer live a Godly life and thereby lose their salvation? In other words, can a a truly saved person ever lose their salvation, or once they claim they are saved are they are saved no matter what?

So just what does the Bible have to say about all this?

John 10:27-30: “My sheep recognize My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from Me, for my Father has given them to Me, and He is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from Me. The Father and I are one.”

These verses tell us that those who “follow” Jesus Christ cannot be taken away from God. Now let’s look at Romans 8:38-39, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

This verse tells us that God will never stop loving us, because in 2 Peter 3:9 it says, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

These verses show us that God never gives up on us. But what happens if we give up on God? What if we turn completely away from God and never look back? 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

It basically says it would be better if they had never known about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up with sin and become its slave again, as they are worse off than before.

These verses seem to tell of someone who knew God and then turned away from Him and that it would have been better if this person had never known God. There was debate even among the early Christians as to whether they could be saved and just continue in their sinful lifestyles and habits and still remain Christians. They were literally using their new found freedom in Christ as a license to commit sin without the guilt.
Romans 6:1-7 answers that question quite well... “Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? Or have you forgotten that when we became Christians and were baptized to become one with Christ Jesus, we died with Him? For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives. Since we have been united with Him in His death, we will also be raised as He was. Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.”

Some people then say that if someone claimed to know Christ and then turned away that they probably were never really saved in the first place. If a person comes to Christ and then there is a complete about face - turning away totally from God - the question of losing their salvation becomes a reality, whether he was truly converted is only up to God so we cannot claim one way or the other except by faith. However, we know that God will never give up on us - it is man that makes the choice to give up on God and walk back to sin.




Here is a good excerpt from a sermon by Pastor Armando M. Camacho - "..Can a person come to Christ, be converted, be in a saved relationship, and then fall out of love with Christ and His truth, rebel against Him, and lose their salvation? Can a saved person choose to be Christ’s and then later choose to be lost? How does the grace of God work? The work of God’s grace is illustrated for us right at the beginning of the Bible. According to Genesis 1, God created a perfect world before man was even made. By His grace God gave to man physical life, a Paradise home to live in, and access to the tree of life in order for man to continue living forever (Genesis 2:8-9). All of this was done, not because man asked for it, but because God wanted to do this and by grace gave to man as a gift, life, the tree of life, and a Paradise home.

Then what do we see which pertains to our subject matter? God could have programmed man or willed man to serve Him faithfully for all eternity but instead we read that our God, wanted to be worshiped by man of man’s own free will. We read that man was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). As God exercised His freedom to choose by choosing to create our world, and choosing to create man, and choosing to save man after man sinned, so God, our Creator, created man with the ability to choose. Immediately God places man, perfect and sinless man, in a position where he is to exercise his God-given ability and right to choose...."

"..We read in Genesis 2:19 that Adam was given the freedom to name the animals whatever he chose to name them. We read in Genesis 2:15 that Adam was allowed to ‘keep house’ however he chose to and make it his home. We read in Genesis 2:16-17 that Adam was allowed the freedom to choose whether or not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created man perfect and sinless. But in order to keep that, shall we say, “saved” relationship he would need to choose on a daily basis, (we don’t know how many days, weeks, months, or years man was in the garden) man was to daily choose to be faithful to God. The basis for choosing to be faithful was easy: simply stay away from one tree in all the garden. The test was simple, yet important to God, because God desired for man to serve Him of his own free will.
After being created in God’s image as a free-willed individual, immediately God places man in a situation where he must choose. Our freedom of will must be very important to God. In fact, our power to choose is what set us apart from the rest of God’s creation. Only man was created with the power to choose and to think for himself. In Adam naming the animals, God demonstrated to His creation that man was superior to all things on earth because he was created in God’s image. So what happened? After some time past, Eve exercised her freedom to choose and chose to rebel against God’s will and did her own thing. Adam, likewise exercised his freedom to choose and chose Eve over God (Genesis 3:1-12).
Man lost his “saved” status by loving something more than loving God. I use the term “saved status” because the consequences of man’s disobedience was death (Genesis 2:17; 3:2-3) and not just physical death but spiritual death as well because now man found himself in need of a Savior (Genesis 3:15).
Man, in a perfect, sinless, saved state of being was given by God the freedom to choose to continue to love Him and be faithful to Him or not. No wonder the Bible concludes as it begins by declaring to the church of John’s day, “you have left your first love.” (Revelation 2:4 NKJV). That is an interesting term, “left.” Leaving constitutes a choice that is made. When someone is said to have “left” their spouse, it is a conscience choice that was made. A choice was made to fall in love with their spouse and a choice is made to fall out of love with their spouse and “leave” them. God gave man the choice of loving Him more than anything else or not. Man chose and God made man “leave” Paradise, and had it not been for God offering to send a Savior, man would have been lost eternally.

How does any of this apply to you and I today? The answer to the question of: Can a person choose to come to Christ and be saved and then choose to get out of that saved relationship is based on the fundamental principle that man is made in God’s image and therefore has the ability and freedom to choose whom he will love and serve. And it speaks to an even deeper truth and that is that God allows us to choose and respects our freedom of choice. He did so in Eden and does so today....."

 

[OntheDL]

I've had some heated discussions with some of our brethern on another thread and most of it seems to be over my accusations of them sinning or practicing sin. If I am in error I will surely apologize and fully admit I am wrong. So if the mods will allow this short space to clear up some possible misconceptions I'd appreciate it.

First off, I want to let everyone know what my perception of the main problem is with this new covenant grace being taught now. It really smacks of once saved always saved even though those who embrace this new teaching will deny that. But I think the main problem is maybe my understanding of what sin actually is. To me sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. Another aspect of sin is if we know to do something and we don't do it then that is also sin, James 4:17. Now we could go on and on about what law is being referred to in 1 John 3:4 but I feel after a lot of study the law the Bible supports as being applicable here is the ten commandment laws.

Here is where the rub is and where I need to be corrected or educated on this. What is sin? If the teaching of the new covenant of grace says we don't have to worry about observing the Sabbath because we are now under the blood of Christ and not the law then what is sin now? Wouldn't that also apply to all the other ten commandments? Adultery, stealing, lying etc.? If this is true does sin even exist in our world anymore.

I don't blame somone for getting upset about being accused of practicing sin if they truely don't believe they are. However, if sin is the transgression of the law which is the ten commandments then not observing the Sabbath week after week is practicing sin isn't it? See where I am coming from? What other conclusion can I come up with here?

I don't want to spread controversy or discontent here at all. I just want every one to know what the truth of this is all about. There has to be some confusion in the SDA churches right now over this. The power of this new teaching is strong and if it is what I think it is right now ,its pointed directly at the remnant chosen of God for the last days. Either I am totally wrong about how the Bible defines sin or they are wrong.

So show me where I am wrong about this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Hi Jim,

The whole controversy is revolved around the sabbath keeping. I used to attend a Pentecostal church and then a Baptist church. They would never say you can break the other 9 commandments. But when it comes to the sabbath commandment, they'd say we are under grace not law. Well let me take your wife out for a date then.

Lets see if you are right with the inspired writing:

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Unfortunately the majority of the professed christians were buried alive.

The entire christiandom is stuck at the cross. The cross is not the end, but the beginning of the plan of salvation. They know not they are perishing.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thanks Reddogs,
Truely this truth of men having a free will refutes once saved always saved.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Unfortunately the majority of the professed christians were buried alive.

The entire christiandom is stuck at the cross. The cross is not the end, but the beginning of the plan of salvation. They know not they are perishing.

What is this talk of being 'stuck at the cross'? Christ's death on the cross is the core of the Gospel. It is where salvation was accomplished on our behalf.

I posted this in another post for you but that thread is now locked so you can't respond to it. I'd like to hear your thoughts though!

"For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speeches and high-sounding ideas, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.​

I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God." 1 Cor. 1:17, 18​

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2​

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Gal 6:14​

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die." Gal 2:17-21​

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there." Gal 5:24​

And there are many more. What are you saying by "stuck at the cross?!" This is the core of the Gospel message, that the Lamb of God became sin for sinful man, laid down his life, and shed his blood in order to make perfect and complete atonement for us so that through Jesus, we might be saved! Jesus life, death, and resurrection are salvation to sinners!

If I'm going to be stuck somewhere, let it be at the foot of the empty cross, where Jesus paid in full the price for ALL my sin! I'm with Paul, "God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

freeindeed (proudly boasting about the cross of Christ!)

 

[OntheDL]

What is this talk of being 'stuck at the cross'? Christ's death on the cross is the core of the Gospel. It is where salvation was accomplished on our behalf.

I posted this in another post for you but that thread is now locked so you can't respond to it. I'd like to hear your thoughts though!

"For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speeches and high-sounding ideas, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.​

I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God." 1 Cor. 1:17, 18​

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2​

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Gal 6:14​

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die." Gal 2:17-21​

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there." Gal 5:24​

And there are many more. What are you saying by "stuck at the cross?!" This is the core of the Gospel message, that the Lamb of God became sin for sinful man, laid down his life, and shed his blood in order to make perfect and complete atonement for us so that through Jesus, we might be saved! Jesus life, death, and resurrection are salvation to sinners!

If I'm going to be stuck somewhere, let it be at the foot of the empty cross, where Jesus paid in full the price for ALL my sin! I'm with Paul, "God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

freeindeed (proudly boasting about the cross of Christ!)

You should know and respect the rules that you are not a member of this congregation. You are not allowed to post other than questions and fellowships.

 

[freeindeed2]

You should know and respect the rules that you are not a member of this congregation. You are not allowed to post other than questions and fellowships.

I actually am a member of this denomination. I wasn't aware that we were in a debate. I was really wanting to know what you meant by being 'stuck at the cross' in light of what the Scriptures say.

I guess I need to know if I'm allowed to post Scripture and ask questions. If I'm not then I'll stop. I will respect the rules and if I am out of line for asking these questions I apologize.

 

[tall73]

I actually am a member of this denomination. I wasn't aware that we were in a debate. I was really wanting to know what you meant by being 'stuck at the cross' in light of what the Scriptures say.

I guess I need to know if I'm allowed to post Scripture and ask questions. If I'm not then I'll stop. I will respect the rules and if I am out of line for asking these questions I apologize.

If you all want to discuss this you really need to take it to GT or denominational specific theology.

Since no one seems willing to make a thread themselves, I will do it for you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4802323-adventist-and-former-adventist-dialogue.html#post31807508

 

[freeindeed2]

If you all want to discuss this you really need to take it to GT or denominational specific theology.

Since no one seems willing to make a thred themselves, I will do it for you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4802323-adventist-and-former-adventist-dialogue.html#post31807508

Hi tall73. Thanks for that. It's not for lack of willingness, but more of an abundance of ignorance on my part for knowing exactly where to start it. I guess I figured that someone else who's been here much longer than myself would start it.

Anyway...thanks.

 

[Sophia7]

If you all want to discuss this you really need to take it to GT or denominational specific theology.

Since no one seems willing to make a thread themselves, I will do it for you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4802323-adventist-and-former-adventist-dialogue.html#post31807508

Thanks for starting a thread there.

 

[Adventtruth]

You should know and respect the rules that you are not a member of this congregation. You are not allowed to post other than questions and fellowships.

So ontheDL...are you going over there to reply? Or are you going to hide? Come on...you, Jim, and Jon.

AT

 

[Sophia7]

This thread is now closed. The discussion can continue in the thread linked to above. Please keep in mind Rule 1.4, also:

[rule1.4]

Former Adventists may post questions and fellowship in the SDA forum. Please take debates to General Theology or Denomination-specific Theology.