what is semi-arianism?

[Daniel Marsh]

why does it matter?

 

[BobRyan]

Seventh-day Adventists believe in the Trinity. See our Fundamental Beliefs

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I know mainline SDA believe in the Trinity. It is what those who don't believe in SDA independent I am asking about so I can learn how you all refute them.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

I'm not sure, but what I "think" you are after would be closer along the lines of the hierarchy or role, even the "pecking order" maybe, for lack of better words and smoking alot of grass when I should've been studying English about 100 years ago. I don't think that ANYONE denies the existence of the three. Make sense? I LOVE your icon!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm not sure, but what I "think" you are after would be closer along the lines of the hierarchy or role, even the "pecking order" maybe, for lack of better words and smoking alot of grass when I should've been studying English about 100 years ago. I don't think that ANYONE denies the existence of the three. Make sense? I LOVE your icon!

I know they think that the Son of God had a begining and the Holy Spirit is not a person. I think they like to use the words present truth.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

As for myself (and I know none here that think the opposite) we know that Christ was begotten before any assemblance of anything as He made ALL things through the power of His Father. IF He had a beginning, it's way past our pay grade and understanding and would be without beginning in our eyes. The Bible merely says "begotten". The Holy Spirit is very much a person as He thinks and feels and teaches according to scripture. He surely is a blessing in my life as He helps me to understand scripture, which biblically, it's His job. There are some that are unsure in their belief as to His "Oneness" in the Godhead as to whether the Godhead is 2 or 3 but scripture says ,there again that we pray and baptize in all 3. There has been a stink raised over discussion of this sort and I doubt you'll get any debate on the subject here. As for your third comment, I'll give you an example of what present truth means, because it may be important to you some day- As history has progressed, so has understanding certain things. Just like when Martin Luther brought present truth for his time, revealing what was not understood, then each of the Reformers after him bringing even more truth relevant for their time. As prophecy passes, understanding of it also begins to shine outward. One example would be the sealed book of Daniel that was not understood until the mid 1800s , which the prophecies in Daniel even give the time it was supposed to be understood- and it was because God is awesome and He doesn't want us in the dark. This is confirmed from 2 or 3 different directions even. The present truths for today are also revealed in the Bible and some of it is not understood completely until it comes to pass. This is the reason for prophecy. Christ said- I have told you these things so when they come to pass you will know I'm God (paraphrase) . If you don't think there is present truth available and everything that's needed to be understood- is , perhaps you can answer a few questions on some prophecy that puzzle us. Peace be with you.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

When it comes to Second Coming Prophecy I am a pan tribis --- it will all pan out. But, maybe I have an answer.

I always though the sealing of book and mystery in OT was the New Covenant based on the book of Hebrews somewhere.


Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Colossians 1:26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people

Like I said, I am not an expert on Second Coming Prophecy --- I simply have been keeping my eyes open for his return.

I will need to go back and restudy,
Daniel 12:9
He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.

There is an interesting passage in the Didache.

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Daniel is my favorite book. Here's a direction you can take a look from if you like- Daniel is the book that was sealed up. A man cracked the codes in the mid 1800s. The 70 weeks prophecy and the 2300 days started from the same point and the 2300 days ended the same year the man figured it out while the 70 weeks was about the coming of Messiah- back then. That's COOL! The sweet part is just that- SWEET. The bitter part was that about 250,000 people, Baptist, Methodist, Congregationalists and all- thought Jesus would come back that year- on a particular day. Bitter was the disappointment when He did not and they were all standing in fields waiting and had given about everything they own away. MOST walked away and only about 50 of 250k went back to the Bible to see where they went wrong. They found their mistake but also figured out the times were correct but the actual event was the blunder. Just food for thought. Remember also that the lawlessness part in your post where you quoted the writing just may be in obedience to God while still professing faith. That seemed to be a big thing Christ warned of. I like the PAN out. Yes it will. Peace be with you.

 

[christian78]

I know they think that the Son of God had a begining and the Holy Spirit is not a person. I think they like to use the words present truth.

I wasn't aware the term "present truth" saw use outside of the Adventist spheres.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I wasn't aware the term "present truth" saw use outside of the Adventist spheres.

It's a well known fact there are those that have no idea what Adventism is about... I seen it on the internet...lol

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Must be true! ....at the present, anyway.

 

[overcomer]

why does it matter?

"In an earlier chapter it was noted the Papacy stigmatized as Arians those who disagreed with her in general, and in particular how she branded those as Judaizers who were convinced that 'the Sabbath' of the fourth commandment was the seventh day." ---BG Wilkinson, Truth Trumphant, p. 314.

“An erroneous charge was circulated that all who were called Arians believed that Christ was a created being. [Footnote: It is doubtful if many believed Christ to be a created being. Generally, those evangelical bodies who opposed the papacy and who were branded as Arians confessed both the divinity of Christ and that He was begotten, not created, by the Father. They recoiled from other extreme deductions and speculations concerning the Godhead.]” — (Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant, p. 492)

“Whether the teachings of Arius were such as are usually represented to us or not, who can say? Phillipus Limborch doubts that Arius himself ever held that Christ was created instead of being begotten [Footnote: Limborch, The History of the Inquisition, page 95].” — (Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant, p. 142)

To get this out of the way, 'Arian' was a Papacy stigmatization of those disagree with her on the Trinitarian teaching just she labeled those who kept the 7th day Sabbath as Judaizers.

Arians are non-Trinitarians in reality. There are some who reject the Trinitarian teaching also believe Christ was created. So Semi-Arian is a mis-label. I know the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers were called semi-Arians because they rejected the trinity and believed Christ was begotten, not created.

The labels are just that, labels. Jesus' disciples were called a sect. Whatever we are called, we are in good company. The patriarchs such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...never believed a Trinity. The Jews never worshipped a trinity. Moses and prophets of Israel didn't. The disciples didn't worship a trinity or a triune God. the early didn't adopt this concept until the council of Nice in 325AD.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That's exactly the point... no one knows what Arius taught, as the victor (Papacy) wrote the history.

This trinity thing is just a distraction for God's people in these last days. We are called to proclaim the 3 angels messages from Rev 14 and nothing else. Satan is pleased if we neglect this and stay focused on these doctrinal differences.

 

[robert skynner]

Seventh-day Adventists believe in the Trinity. See our Fundamental Beliefs

Really, I've heard that some SDA members have used the word Trinity, but redefined in a non-Trinitarian way, for instance James White back in the 19th century who was one of the founders of the SDA church. Would you mind explaining your Trinitarian beliefs in more detail please. It seems that the trinity is a "flexible" doctrine within SDA where the church has tolerated blatant anti-Trinitarianism for many years.

 

[BobRyan]

Really, I've heard that some SDA members have used the word Trinity, but redefined in a non-Trinitarian way, for instance James White back in the 19th century who was one of the founders of the SDA church. Would you mind explaining your Trinitarian beliefs in more detail please. It seems that the trinity is a "flexible" doctrine within SDA where the church has tolerated blatant anti-Trinitarianism for many years.

One God -- Deut 6:5 in Three Persons Matt 28:19

28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf


Belief #2 -
The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-know-ing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8;
Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

===========================

Since the founding of the Seventh-day Adventist church 1863 there has never been a voted statement of beliefs by this denomination that conflicts with that statement above - Belief #2 -- of our current 28.

There are a small group of people here and there that differ with the denomination on that point and other even larger groups differ on some other points. This has always been the case.


But your post goes beyond the actual voted statement of beliefs into "policing" and question about what member might be "tolerated"?

What denomination do you belong to that practices that sort of thought-police action world-wide?

What is pretty clear so far is that SDA pastors at the very least have to agree to our statement of Beliefs to become licensed.

Your profile says "humanist" so I am assuming that there is a great deal of latitude on what may be "tolerated" among humanists. So then we are more strict in that regard - but we do "tolerate" a certain level of differences in POV

 

[robert skynner]

One God -- Deut 6:5 in Three Persons Matt 28:19

28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf


Belief #2 -
The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-know-ing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8;
Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

===========================

Since the founding of the Seventh-day Adventist church 1863 there has never been a voted statement of beliefs by this denomination that conflicts with that statement above - Belief #2 -- of our current 28.

There are a small group of people here and there that differ with the denomination on that point and other even larger groups differ on some other points. This has always been the case.


But your post goes beyond the actual voted statement of beliefs into "policing" and question about what member might be "tolerated"?

What denomination do you belong to that practices that sort of thought-police action world-wide?

What is pretty clear so far is that SDA pastors at the very least have to agree to our statement of Beliefs to become licensed.

Your profile says "humanist" so I am assuming that there is a great deal of latitude on what may be "tolerated" among humanists. So then we are more strict in that regard - but we do "tolerate" a certain level of differences in POV

I reject Christianity, I don't attend any meetings appart from occasional humanist meetings. As for the SDA, they have in the past often veered towards anti-Trinitarianim, this anti-Trinity position of many SDA leaders needs to be properly explained. I feel that the SDA church is dishonest in covering up their past.

 

[robert skynner]

One God -- Deut 6:5 in Three Persons Matt 28:19

28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf


Belief #2 -
The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-know-ing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8;
Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

===========================

Since the founding of the Seventh-day Adventist church 1863 there has never been a voted statement of beliefs by this denomination that conflicts with that statement above - Belief #2 -- of our current 28.

There are a small group of people here and there that differ with the denomination on that point and other even larger groups differ on some other points. This has always been the case.


But your post goes beyond the actual voted statement of beliefs into "policing" and question about what member might be "tolerated"?

What denomination do you belong to that practices that sort of thought-police action world-wide?

What is pretty clear so far is that SDA pastors at the very least have to agree to our statement of Beliefs to become licensed.

Your profile says "humanist" so I am assuming that there is a great deal of latitude on what may be "tolerated" among humanists. So then we are more strict in that regard - but we do "tolerate" a certain level of differences in POV

I am actually interested in the SDA position on tithing. Would anyone be interested in discussing tithing in a new thread, or via a video discussion posted on YouTube, where each side discusses tithing for 10 minutes on video and we then post a series of videos sequentially.

 

[BobRyan]

I am actually interested in the SDA position on tithing. Would anyone be interested in discussing tithing in a new thread, or via a video discussion posted on YouTube, where each side discusses tithing for 10 minutes on video and we then post a series of videos sequentially.

Maybe a new thread would be best.

Do you want me to start one or would you like to?

 

[BobRyan]

I reject Christianity, I don't attend any meetings appart from occasional humanist meetings. As for the SDA, they have in the past often veered towards anti-Trinitarianim, this anti-Trinity position of many SDA leaders needs to be properly explained. I feel that the SDA church is dishonest in covering up their past.

Why would we care what some individuals 'say' when we have an actual voted statement of beliefs for the group of almost 20 million. It is fine if a few 100 or a few 1000 beg to differ on some point? We have always allowed "some individuals" to say pretty much whatever they want. However when it comes to licensing pastors we are a bit more strict.

The first published form of our statement of beliefs was around 1872. There have been several since then -- none of them condemn the Trinity. None of them state that we do not believe in the Trinity. But there were some key leaders in the 1800's that were against both a "Creed" - a "Statement of beliefs" and the 'Trinity".

Ellen White was raised as a unit Methodist - and then started following William Miller's teaching at around the age of 13. Both she and Miller were Trinitarian.

The explicit Trinity statements did not start appearing in our published beliefs until the early 1900's.

not sure why you would care about any of that as a non-Christian. I have to think that you are not at all Trinitarian.

What beliefs do you have as a humanist that makes tithing one of our top subjects here?

 

[BobRyan]

I know mainline SDA believe in the Trinity. It is what those who don't believe in SDA independent I am asking about so I can learn how you all refute them.

Jehovah's Witnesses are the most common form of anti-Trinitarian discussion that I have ever come across.

So we them -- all I need to do is make these few simple points.

Deut 6:5 "One God"
Matt 28:19 --- in Three Persons.

Even our JW friends will admit that Jesus is the Creator of this World -
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Having established the fact (that they all agree to) that Jesus is the Creator - who MADE all things --

We then have THIS!

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.