What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

timothyu · Oct 27, 2022

rturner76 said:
Is Jesus a middleman?

Between us and the Father yes, but we can relate directly. Yet somehow an institution set itself up as a middleman between us and Him while controlling the narrative. The word is full of similar salesmen.

timothyu · Oct 27, 2022

Paidiske said:
I would put it differently, and say that it is something we don't do on our own, but in community.

Agree, as was the example and methods of the Way. Jesus gave us a way of life, not another man oriented institution. But again, some are genuine and some take advantage of it.

rturner76 · Oct 27, 2022

timothyu said:
Between us and the Father yes, but we can relate directly. Yet somehow an institution set itself up as a middleman between us and Him while controlling the narrative. The word is full of similar salesmen.

It was Jesus and Paul that set that up. Why doubt the Church that Christ founded on St Peter the rock?

timothyu · Oct 27, 2022

rturner76 said:
It was Jesus and Paul that set that up. Why doubt the Church that Christ founded on St Peter the rock?

Jesus simply said His church would be built upon truth from God, not man. Man went ahead and modelled it on past institutions.

rturner76 · Oct 27, 2022

timothyu said:
Jesus simply said His church would be built upon truth from God, not man. Man went ahead and modelled it on past institutions.

Those institutions were put in place by Christ and his apostles.

timothyu · Oct 27, 2022

rturner76 said:
Those institutions were put in place by Christ and his apostles.

They were built upon their prior communities. Kinda like a home owners association that sets itself up rule over the neighbourhood.

Paidiske · Oct 27, 2022

I think some of this either/or thinking can be a bit unhelpful. I think it's more both/and.

That is, is the Church today exactly what Christ intended it to be? Clearly not. It's full of humans and we're prone to messing things up.

But on the other hand, is God at work in and through the Church, growing the kingdom, transforming human lives through faith, and so on? Clearly God is.

So is it perfect? No. But is it a place of genuine Christian community? Yes.

Both being completely blind to its imperfections, and dismissing it altogether, miss the reality of God at work.

ViaCrucis · Oct 28, 2022

timothyu said:
Between us and the Father yes, but we can relate directly. Yet somehow an institution set itself up as a middleman between us and Him while controlling the narrative. The word is full of similar salesmen.

And how does the world hear of Jesus? When Jesus ascended, what did He say? Look at Matthew 28:19. Look at what Paul says in Romans 10:14-17.

Christ called and established His Church to be the bearers of His Gospel to the nations. It is through us that the world hears of Jesus. How do we hear the Good Shepherd's voice? It's His voice right there in the Scriptures, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, and it is these which bear witness to Me." (John 5:39).

It's not about middlemen. It's about Christ being the Head and the Church being the Body. It's about Christ being in and through His Church for the nations. It is Christ who comes to the nations through the Church, through us, in the Gospel.

The Apostle is clear, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile. For through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17). Christ Himself said His Church was to baptize. Christ Himself took bread and wine, saying, "This is My body broken for you" and "This is My blood of the new covenant". It is Christ who said, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them." Human institutions didn't say that, Jesus Christ the Almighty King and God-Man said that.

-CryptoLutheran

timothyu · Oct 28, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
And how does the world hear of Jesus?

It hears of Him in all sorts of ways including through those who rebel against Him. None of it is bad if He is made known.

However Jesus did not set up yet another institution. He established a way of life of God's will, not man's. Communities without institutional governments. Servitude to others along with the promise of the Kingdom for those who lived by God's will rather than man's.

ViaCrucis · Oct 28, 2022

timothyu said:
It hears of Him in all sorts of ways including through those who rebel against Him. None of it is bad if He is made known.

However Jesus did not set up yet another institution. He established a way of life of God's will, not man's. Communities without institutional governments. Servitude to others along with the promise of the Kingdom for those who lived by God's will rather than man's.

Then don't trust in the institution of yourself. Trust in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

timothyu · Oct 28, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Then don't trust in the institution of yourself. Trust in Him.

Absolutely. My point entirely, be it mine or any other's.

JimR-OCDS · Oct 28, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Is it ok for the church to make up a sacrament? Are they something from God or does the church have the ability to create God's Grace?

The sacraments are Scripturally Based, not made up by men.

JimR-OCDS · Oct 28, 2022

In Scripture, we have the 7 sacraments.

1. The Eucharist Instituted by Christ himself
2. Baptism, which Jesus said was necessary
3. Laying on of hands, or Confirmation, which
the Apostles said was necessary, for those
only Baptized according to John the Baptist.
4. Marriage, which was part of the Jewish tradition
as well as the early Church. Jesus said, God created
man and woman and the two became one.
5. Confession. "Confess your sins to one another."
In the Early Church, confession was done before
the Congregation. In fact, private confession before
a priest was prohibited. That changed when the Church
was persecuted in Ireland and the clergy were ordered to
remain inside monastery walls. So, they made small rooms
along the outside wall of the monastery with a window that
opened to the priest on the other side. The penitent confessed
their sins and received spiritual direction from the priest. It was
so well accepted, that it ended up as the norm in the Church.
6. Anointing of the Sick. Jesus and the Apostles anointed the sick
in their ministry, often healing them, or giving them a final
blessing. This was also in Judaism during Christ time.
7. Ordination. Bishops, priests and deacons were ordained in
the Church. The Acts of the Apostles and St Paul's epistles
confirm this, as well as the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch
and St Polycarp, who were believed to be the auditors of
St John's Gospel.

disciple Clint · Oct 31, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
The sacraments are Scripturally Based, not made up by men.

Where are the scriptures about the sacrament of Reconciliation or Extreme Unction Viaticum

ViaCrucis · Oct 31, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Where are the scriptures about the sacrament of Reconciliation or Extreme Unction Viaticum

The Sacrament of Confession and Holy Absolution is instituted by Christ in Matthew 16 and John 20, where Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to His Church (Matthew 16:19) and breathing upon His apostles says, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whoever's sins you retain are retained" (John 20:21-23).

While Lutherans don't consider Holy Unction to be a Sacrament, it is a biblically prescribed practice (James 5:14). We find Sacramental Confession again here in the same place (James 5:16).

-CryptoLutheran

timothyu · Oct 31, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
The sacraments are Scripturally Based, not made up by men.

Interpreted by men

disciple Clint · Oct 31, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
The Sacrament of Confession and Holy Absolution is instituted by Christ in Matthew 16 and John 20, where Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to His Church (Matthew 16:19) and breathing upon His apostles says, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whoever's sins you retain are retained" (John 20:21-23).

While Lutherans don't consider Holy Unction to be a Sacrament, it is a biblically prescribed practice (James 5:14). We find Sacramental Confession again here in the same place (James 5:16).

-CryptoLutheran

Yes I agree with the rituals I just do not hold that they constitute sacraments and that seems to be a question that cannot be resolved because we are depending on the decisions of man to decide what is and is not a sacrament and what exactly the value of that sacrament may be in relationship to our salvation.

ViaCrucis · Oct 31, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Yes I agree with the rituals I just do not hold that they constitute sacraments and that seems to be a question that cannot be resolved because we are depending on the decisions of man to decide what is and is not a sacrament and what exactly the value of that sacrament may be in relationship to our salvation.

I can't speak of other traditions. But for Lutherans the only relationship the Sacraments have to our salvation is that they declare it; and what is declared is true. In Absolution our sins are declared forgiven, and this is most certainly true. There isn't a "new" grace in the Sacraments apart from the singular grace of God in Christ, who has achieved and attained for us the full remission of our sins by His once and perfect work. Word and Sacrament are means of grace precisely because they declare this forgiveness. That is the grace of God to save us, and that is what it means to be justified by grace alone through faith. God declares us just, that we are forgiven, Christ has made satisfaction for us.

The Sacraments aren't works of obedience for God's sake, but works of God's grace for ours.

There is salvation here, because God is saving us here. God is declaring us forgiven through His Word and His Sacraments.

The Gospel is radical precisely because it is Jesus plus nothing. Even our believing in Him is God's gift and doing.

-CryptoLutheran

timothyu · Nov 1, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
There is salvation here, because God is saving us here. God is declaring us forgiven through His Word and His Sacraments.

God is creating a new Eden. We who are still in exile are not all welcome.

JimR-OCDS · Nov 1, 2022

timothyu said:
Interpreted by men

And so is the entire Bible interpreted by men.

However, certain men who have been given authority by God, are
guided by the Holy Spirit.

You have to have faith to believe this, otherwise remain in the darkness.

What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

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