What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

JimR-OCDS · Oct 26, 2022

From the Baltimore Catechism, which I remember parts of growing up.

Q. 574. What is a Sacrament?

A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

The Mass or Eucharist, is such a Sacrament.

The reason for focus on the ritual, is to bring the people into union with
the Church in celebrating the Sacrament as a community.

It's the way to avoid anarchy in the celebration.

ViaCrucis · Oct 26, 2022

disciple Clint said:
OK so sacraments provide grace that is not available through relationship?

From the Lutheran POV, God's relationship with us is in Word and Sacrament. We know God in His grace, not our own works, and God's grace is here in Word and Sacrament. Because Jesus is here in Word and Sacrament, and we can only know God through His Son. The Holy Spirit makes this happen, because He is the Paraclete, our Comforter, the Spirit of truth who works faith in us and brings us to Jesus. That relationship with God which we have in Christ, is also then the basis, through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, moved outward to others, with one another. In our fellowship together as members of Christ's Body, and in our walk as disciples in the world in relation to our neighbors. But it is always in Christ, the True Vine, as we are the branches, abiding in Him. He is the rock, the foundation, the true vine.

We can't find our relationship to God by looking inward to ourselves, where there is only sin, wretchedness, and transgression against God's Law; for "the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately sick", says the Prophet Jeremiah. In ourselves we do not seek God, it is only extra nos, outside of ourselves, in God's grace, in Jesus Christ, in the work and word of God. We trust that what is extra nos is being worked in us, that is God's promise in sanctification; but we cannot look to ourselves to find that work, nor can we trust in ourselves to see that work in action: We must always look outward, to Christ, to God's word and promises, to God's gifts, grace, and power in the Sacraments.

-CryptoLutheran

rturner76 · Oct 26, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Can you apply that same logic to all the sacraments?

Pretty much. They all bring us closer to God and are sacred.

JimR-OCDS · Oct 26, 2022

If the Sacraments don't give us grace, why did Jesus institute the Sacrament of the
Holy Eucharist and instructed us to do this in memory of him? Is this a fruitless
exercise on his part? I think not!

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

You mean there is more to it than comparing nourishment to the food of life, Jesus? Which is more beneficial, digesting Jesus or nourishing ourselves with the truth of God and the Kingdom?

JimR-OCDS · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
You mean there is more to it than comparing nourishment to the food of life, Jesus? Which is more beneficial, digesting Jesus or nourishing ourselves with the truth of God and the Kingdom?

Jesus said, "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will not have life within you."

Reception of Holy Communion isn't a matter of eating and drinking, but of receiving Christ's
body and blood, which unifies us both physically and spiritually to Him.

Is it necessary for salvation? No, but it's a gift which He gave us, and how can turning
down the gift be anything good?

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

disciple Clint said:
OK so sacraments provide grace that is not available through relationship?

Yes. Sacraments are part of the relationship.

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
Possibly but the earliest churches responded not in word but in deed. A way of life was their ritual.

They read scripture and celebrated the Lord's supper. That's liturgy.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
Reception of Holy Communion isn't a matter of eating and drinking, but of receiving Christ's
body and blood, which unifies us both physically and spiritually to Him.

Seems He would be more interested in our brains clicking to the fact God's will is better than ours, than have us somehow transform by a transfusion.

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
Seems He would be more interested in our brains clicking to the fact God's will is better than ours, than have us somehow transform by a transfusion.

He commands it. See John 6.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

RileyG said:
They read scripture and celebrated the Lord's supper. That's liturgy.

I said the earliest churches like the Way who actually lived what Jesus taught rather than creating a ceremony out of it.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

RileyG said:
He commands it. See John 6.

There are always two ways of seeing things, through the eyes of the Kingdom or through the eyes and institutions of man.

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
I said the earliest churches like the Way who actually lived what Jesus taught rather than creating a ceremony out of it.

Yes. They lived with one another and among each other. That is true. However, liturgy, and even synagogue worship was still very important to them. (At least the first century Christians).

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
There are always two ways of seeing things, through the eyes of the Kingdom or through the eyes and institutions of man.

The Eucharist is the Sacrament of the Kingdom.

RileyG · Oct 26, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
If the Sacraments don't give us grace, why did Jesus institute the Sacrament of the
Holy Eucharist and instructed us to do this in memory of him? Is this a fruitless
exercise on his part? I think not!

Amen. Jesus commanded we eat his body and blood and be baptized. Those physical Sacraments ("signs") confer grace.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

RileyG said:
Yes. They lived with one another and among each other. That is true. However, liturgy, and even synagogue worship was still very important to them. (At least the first century Christians).

True, the ceremony of the synagogue was kept as the receptacle of the scriptures, but Jesus took away the middleman and the people not only cared for each other rather than building an institution or government to do so with all its rules and regulations (be it religious or secular), but also had a personal relationship with God without the need of a middleman except for Jesus Himself. We either believe we can relate directly to Him, or we think we need someone to represent him. I reject the latter.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

RileyG said:
The Eucharist is the Sacrament of the Kingdom.

The Kingdom (Jesus' gospel) is the return of God to obliterate governments of man, both secular and religious.

JimR-OCDS · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
Seems He would be more interested in our brains clicking to the fact God's will is better than ours, than have us somehow transform by a transfusion.

So you want to tell God how he should think?

JimR-OCDS · Oct 26, 2022

timothyu said:
I said the earliest churches like the Way who actually lived what Jesus taught rather than creating a ceremony out of it.

So here’s Justin on the Eucharist, first from chapter 65, Administration of the Sacraments:

"But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to ge’noito [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion."

The Early Church celebrated the Mass often in homes or in other hiding places after persecutions began, such as in The Early Church celebrated the Mass often in homes or in other hiding places such as the Catacombs of Rome. There are paintings on the walls of such catacombs depicting
the celebration of the Mass.

timothyu · Oct 26, 2022

JimR-OCDS said:
So you want to tell God how he should think?

I just said God tells us how to think, we just often refuse to listen preferring our own wisdom and governments. Would He prefer we understood that His will before ours is wisdom and why, or that we just tried to clone Him into ourselves by gnawing off a chunk.

What is "Ritual"? Why does it seem some Churches give more emphasis to it while others don't?

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