What is Original Sin?

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

JAS4Yeshua said:
You say Sin is a lie? So you are saying that God is a liar? You are saying that the Bible isn't true? You are saying that Jesus's death on the cross was for nothing?

Search for the word sin in the KJV and you find 389 references of that word. Definitely a lot of occurrences for it to be a lie.

I, personally, believe that sin is an actualized concept in our day-to-day lives...and has been over the course of human history. As such, we need a Savior.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around your last post, Story.

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

StoryPort said:
First, sin is a lie. Second, sin as delusion, a nonextant delusion, exists, but only as a lie.

Sin is a lie...or the lie is manifested as sin itself? Man, you're buggin' me out.

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

white dove said:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around your last post, Story.

white, question, did the devil tell Eve the truth? I'm assuming you would tell me no. If the devil told Eve not the truth, then he told her a lie. So is not sin a lie? And is not the execution of evil the manifestation of that lie in our hearts?

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

white dove said:
Sin is a lie...or the lie is manifested as sin itself? Man, you're buggin' me out.

white, LOL. Question. Does Bin Laden believe the truth? Or does he believe a lie? Does he act out the truth? Or does he act according to a delusion, a fabrication, a lie?

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

Sin is a lie but it exists, it exists as a lie.

JAS4Yeshua · Jan 30, 2007

Show me love. Don't act it out. Can you?

Sin is action, it is thought. It isn't something tangible that can be shown without action any more than love can be shown without action.

You say that the Bible is tells the truth yet it talks about a lie. How can one be truth and a lie. It is either one or the other. It cannot be both. Either you believe it is the truth, or you believe it is a lie. You cannot have it both ways.

If, as you say, sin exists as a lie, then Jesus died for a lie. Why would God die for a lie? God does not lie. He would not support a lie, He would have exposed it for what it was.

1 Peter 2:21-22 - To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

Titus 1:2 - a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

JAS4Yeshua · Jan 30, 2007

StoryPort said:
white, question, did the devil tell Eve the truth? I'm assuming you would tell me no. If the devil told Eve not the truth, then he told her a lie. So is not sin a lie? And is not the execution of evil the manifestation of that lie in our hearts?

You have it backwards. Sin isn't a lie. A lie is a type of sin.

StoryPort said:
white, LOL. Question. Does Bin Laden believe the truth? Or does he believe a lie? Does he act out the truth? Or does he act according to a delusion, a fabrication, a lie?

He acted in his own selfish interests and desires. His actions, in whole, was the sin. In one sense, he is no different than anyone else, except that what we see as more atrocious, God still saw as sin.

StoryPort said:
Sin is a lie but it exists, it exists as a lie.

You still have fault in your logic. You say that sin is a lie because Satan lied to Eve. The lie was a sin, but that doesn't make sin a lie.

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

JAS4Yeshua said:
Show me love. Don't act it out. Can you? Sin is action, it is thought. It isn't something tangible that can be shown without action any more than love can be shown without action.

You say that the Bible is tells the truth yet it talks about a lie. How can one be truth and a lie. It is either one or the other. It cannot be both. Either you believe it is the truth, or you believe it is a lie. You cannot have it both ways.

If, as you say, sin exists as a lie, then Jesus died for a lie. Why would God die for a lie? God does not lie. He would not support a lie, He would have exposed it for what it was.

I can show you love without acting it out. I asked you to extend your hand to me and show me sin without action. You cannot, but i can show you love by my extended hand. My hand was made by the love of God. Not by a lie. Secondly, the Bible is not a lie, the Bible teaches us about the father of lies and his followers. And this is truth that Jesus did die for a lie, for a world of liars. If we are not God, and we deceived ourselves by the devil's lie, then our lies are forgiven by the atoning work of Christ. And we have an imputed righteousness, the truth, the Way, the life in Christ. True God does not lie and He does not support lies, He points them out. He exposes all liars, the truth which is suppressed in the heart of the wicked, will be exposed at the coming of Christ when the lie is finally thrown down forever.

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

StoryPort said:
I can show you love without acting it out. I asked you to extend your hand to me and show me sin without action. You cannot, but i can show you love by my extended hand. My hand was made by the love of God. Not by a lie. Secondly, the Bible is not a lie, the Bible teaches us about the father of lies and his followers. And this is truth that Jesus did die for a lie, for a world of liars. If we are not God, and we deceived ourselves by the devil's lie, then our lies are forgiven by the atoning work of Christ. And we have an imputed righteousness, the truth, the Way, the life in Christ. True God does not lie and He does not support lies, He points them out. He exposes all liars, the truth which is suppressed in the heart of the wicked, will be exposed at the coming of Christ when the lie is finally thrown down forever.

Amen!

Now see? Was that so difficult?

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

I feel as though if we'd all been discussing this face-to-face, it would not have been so difficult to explain.

Non-verbal forms of communication, like body language, can be so crucial.

JAS4Yeshua · Jan 30, 2007

You are trying to rename sin with the word "lie." Sin is more than a simple lie. It is true that God exposes liars. It is true that He does not support lies. It is true that God will expose the truth. But you are missing the entire point of what sin is. Sin isn't a lie, it is our disobedience to God. It is our selfishness, desiring to put ourselves equal to or above God. It is us saying that we don't need God. It is not living up to the standards of perfection that God has set before us. Sin isn't just a lie, neither is it a lie at all. Sin is a state of being that came into our lives after Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan's lie was not the sin, it was the temptation. The sin was in the disobedience to God who told them "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil." From that sin came death, and death spread to all men, because we are sinners.

You cannot claim the Bible to be Truth and call sin a lie. That would be a contradiction of terms, because the Bible says that sin is part of the truth.

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

StoryPort said:
white, question, did the devil tell Eve the truth? I'm assuming you would tell me no. If the devil told Eve not the truth, then he told her a lie. So is not sin a lie? And is not the execution of evil the manifestation of that lie in our hearts?

Yes...that lie was the sin (against God, calling God a liar in front of God's precious creation). Adam and Eve believing that lie and not what God had said was their sin -the belief of that lie.

Genesis 3:4-5 said:
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil

That was a lie.

JAS4Jeshua said:
You have it backwards. Sin isn't a lie. A lie is a type of sin.

I actually think you both are on the same page, though it may not appear to be so right off the bat.

StoryPort said:
white, LOL. Question. Does Bin Laden believe the truth? Or does he believe a lie? Does he act out the truth? Or does he act according to a delusion, a fabrication, a lie?

I don't know...I don't know his idealogy. Does he believe a lie? Or, is it truth to him? Or does he just live in a lie? I cannot know his mind and heart as God does, but surely his actions of hate are the fruits of what he believes in -a lie- a lie that states that only "certain people" are evil and should be wiped out, while others are not and deemed completely okay to live (others who believe in that lie).

He acted in his own selfish interests and desires. His actions, in whole, was the sin. In one sense, he is no different than anyone else, except that what we see as more atrocious, God still saw as sin.

But, if people live in a lie, live as though they are not accountable to anyone, under Heaven or on Earth, is that person still guilty of a lie? The truth is, they are living the lie...that is their sin -that they don't owe any answers to God for their actions, just as Adam and Eve did not take into account what their response would be to God, considering they ate of the fruit that He explicably told them not to eat. Only after God confronted them and called them out on it did they respond with excuses for doubting Him and believing Satan's lie.

JAS4Yeshua · Jan 30, 2007

Let me trouble you with an example of what I'm trying to explain.

I am a relatively healthy adult male. I have two eyes, a nose and a mouth. I have two arms, two hands, and ten fingers. You get the idea. My vision isn't perfect, therefore I wear glasses. This is a truth about me. My glasses, though, don't define me. I'm an adult male, not a pair of glasses. The glasses are part of who I am.

It is the same for a lie. A lie is part of sin, but not sin itself. To call "sin" a "lie" would be to call me "glasses" instead of "man."

white dove · Jan 30, 2007

StoryPort said:
I can show you love without acting it out. I asked you to extend your hand to me and show me sin without action. You cannot, but i can show you love by my extended hand. My hand was made by the love of God.

Semantics. Your hand extended is not an action? C'mon, Story.

I agree with JAS4Jeshua along the lines of stating that sin, like love, is shown best through actions to place the tangible component of it. Truthfully, we are beings who need to see, hear and feel things in order to get us to remember or experience in a way that is meaninful to us. God chose to come here in the form of Jesus Christ to show His love for us. Sin and love can be internalized and felt or thought of, but it is through the actions where it is made complete.

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

JAS4Yeshua said:
You are trying to rename sin with the word "lie." Sin is more than a simple lie. It is true that God exposes liars. It is true that He does not support lies. It is true that God will expose the truth. But you are missing the entire point of what sin is. Sin isn't a lie, it is our disobedience to God. It is our selfishness, desiring to put ourselves equal to or above God. It is us saying that we don't need God. It is not living up to the standards of perfection that God has set before us. Sin isn't just a lie, neither is it a lie at all. Sin is a state of being that came into our lives after Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan's lie was not the sin, it was the temptation. The sin was in the disobedience to God who told them "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil." From that sin came death, and death spread to all men, because we are sinners. You cannot claim the Bible to be Truth and call sin a lie. That would be a contradiction of terms, because the Bible says that sin is part of the truth.

Sin translated means missing the mark. To miss the mark is to fall away from the truth. Secondly, the lie is not that simple it is a complex mythology in the sinners imagination. Thirdly, to say sin is mere disobedience is an erroneous simplification. Thirdly, define "state of Being" is that a physical or corporeal state? Fourthly, disobedience is an action, an action predicated upon missing the mark, believing a lie. Eve sinned, before she ate the fruit. She sinned in beleiving the lie, then acting it out. Interesting how you disagree with the thesis, then go on to describe Eve's rebellion and the lie she embraced. "Sin isn't a lie, it is our disobedience to God. It is our selfishness, desiring to put ourselves equal to or above God." Is that not a lie? Putting oursleves equal to or above God? Is that a truth? Or is the truth that it is a lie? I take issue with the notion that sin is part of the truth. If you mean like Zoroaster that there is an eternal evil being fighting an eternal good being. Sin came into the world out of nothing. But unlike the creation which is not preeternal, sin has no substance. And it has no Maker other than Satan. I do not give satan's lie a place along side the truth as a substantive thing.

StoryPort · Jan 30, 2007

1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

A very crafty tricky liar.

...And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Satan here attempts to make God look miserly, like a selfish person. God only told Eve that she must not eat of the one tree in the midst of the garden. He is lying.

Genesis 3:1-20
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Eve rightly straightens out what Satan is twisting.

Genesis 3:1-20
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:1-20
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Lie.

Genesis 3:1-20
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Lie.

Genesis 3:1-20
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Before she ever reached for the forbidden fruit, she embraced the lie of self divinity.

armothe · Jan 30, 2007

JAS4Yeshua said:
I apologize for the misrepresentation on that one point, but doesn't change the rest of my arguments which have references.

It simply goes towards the method of how sin is passed down from generation to generation. Your source seems to infer that sin is passed down genetically. In reality sin is simply passed down through actions and examples.

-A

JAS4Yeshua · Jan 30, 2007

armothe:
I can't comment on that any further as I lack the information to continue that thread of the discussion. I will say though that not everything is learned behavior. You don't have to teach a child to lie, they know that naturally.

Story:
I agree with you, Satan was a master liar. He is the prince of lies. I also agree that sin is missing the mark, it is something I posted in one of my earlier posts in this thread. But you are trying to limit sin as just a lie, which isn't the truth.

Original Sin, as the topic of this thread, was when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. The temptation was the lies of Satan. Adam and Eve gave into the temptation--believed the lie, if you want to say that--and thus committed the first (original) sin. As a result, the curse that God warned them about came upon them. Sin and death passed down from Adam through the generations. Because of this, a Savior was needed, which is why Christ came.

Sin is disobedience. Sin is missing the mark. Sin is imperfection. Sin includes all manner of things, such as lying, murder, adultry, fornication, etc. The bottom line is that the Bible calls us sinners. God calls us sinners. Sin is part of the truth, and there is no way of escaping that.

armothe · Feb 1, 2007

JAS4Yeshua said:
You don't have to teach a child to lie, they know that naturally.

But how do you know that a child's lie is a result of some natural genetic disorder versus having learned it perhaps from TV, or other children, or even the parents?
Is this something that can be proven?

-A

JAS4Yeshua · Feb 2, 2007

I think it has been proven, I just don't have any further information on it.

What is Original Sin?

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