What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

One God and Father of All · Feb 6, 2024

Bones49 said:
Why can't you just put the reference with the quote? (OK, I understand, I usually don't remember the reference either, so it is a pain, but give and take!)

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Jesus speaking)

OK. So Paul referred to himself as the father of the Corinthian church. Did he go against what Jesus said in Matt 23:9. I would say no. He referred to himself as the father of the church, he did not tell the church that they should call him father. Also I feel that the usage of the word is different by Paul than Jesus. I think the force of Jesus' words are on the authority figure side of things, where for Paul it's more on the loving parent side of things.

“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

22Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in [j]sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23having been born again, not of [k]corruptible seed but [l]incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides [m]forever.

When Paul preached the gospel to cause them to obey the truth it would cause them to be begotten though the word of God. So he says that he has begotten them.
But they never did, nor would call him father.

One God and Father of All · Feb 6, 2024

Valletta said:
Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22 (as RileyG mentioned) that Jews of the day would have recognized, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). Of all of the Apostles, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter alone. In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the office of prime minister becomes vacant, a new prime minister is chosen.

Keys are used for opening gates or doors. After Peter‘s confession to know who Christ was, Jesus told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Then he says he gives Peter the key to the kingdom of heaven.
When Peter went to preach the gospel of the kingdom of heaven he would be opening the door to heaven For them.

Indeed it was a special honor for Peter but it didn’t make him head of the church. Paul open the door for many also.. As did others who would preach the gospel of the kingdom in truth.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

Ceallaigh said:
That obviously was not written by Clement.

Your credibility is going down the drain.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

ozso · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Your conclusion is incorrect.

In that case you must be claiming that St. Clement carved that marble plaque in St. Peter's Basilica which was built centuries after Clement died. And that plaque is known as the "Letter of St. Clement of Rome", which you said is rock solid evidence that Peter was the first bishop of Rome ie the first pope.

There is CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle but it offers no evidence whatsoever of Peter being the bishop of Rome. The only thing written about Peter in it is:

CHAPTER 5 -- NO LESS EVILS HAVE ARISEN FROM THE SAME SOURCE IN THE MOST RECENT TIMES. THE MARTYRDOM OF PETER AND PAUL.

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours, and when he had finally suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

Nothing here either: The "Second Epistle" of St. Clement

JulieB67 · Feb 6, 2024

The prophets, apostles are all the foundation with Christ being the cornerstone-

When Paul was teaching the Ephesians, he states

Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;"

This tells us that the all believers are "built" upon the foundations of them with Christ being the head. No one is singled out. They all laid the foundation.

It doesn't state all are built upon the foundation of Peter.

He goes on and and there's no doubt that the church of Christ is spiritual, not physical

Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy Temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 "In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Peter was a leader but not the head of the church-That's for Christ alone

Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

One God and Father of All said:
Keys are used for opening gates or doors

Exactly. These spiritual keys are not about being made head of the church.

Valletta · Feb 6, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
Keys are used for opening gates or doors. After Peter‘s confession to know who Christ was, Jesus told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Then he says he gives Peter the key to the kingdom of heaven.
When Peter went to preach the gospel of the kingdom of heaven he would be opening the door to heaven For them.

Indeed it was a special honor for Peter but it didn’t make him head of the church. Paul open the door for many also.. As did others who would preach the gospel of the kingdom in truth.

You don't seem to be familiar with Isaiah, Jews of the day would have recognized the parallel when Jesus spoke. In Isaiah the king gives the keys to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the king is absent the word of the prime minister bears the same weight as the king. JESUS is the head of the Church, not the pope. Peter was not royalty, it was just a position, an important position, that Jesus assigned to him. There would be disagreements among the Apostles, and after discussions someone needed to make the decisions when Jesus was not there.

BeyondET · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
What you will find in Rome is the tomb of saint Peter and an abundance of evidence that he was in Rome and executed there in 64 AD. But, facts must never be allowed to get in the way of falsehoods used to support shaky doctrine, such as the claim that saint Peter was never in Rome.

There is no solid evidence, textual or even archaeological that Peter died in Rome or even visited Rome, thats another made up fantasy. No Peter's remains wasn't found in 68 near the vatican that alone speaks for itself.

Starting around the end of the second century, Christian pilgrims went to see Peter's tropaion. But a tropaion is not a tomb.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

Ceallaigh said:
In that case you must be claiming that St. Clement carved that marble plaque in St. Peter's Basilica which was built centuries after Clement died. And that plaque is known as the "Letter of St. Clement of Rome", which you said is rock solid evidence that Peter was the first bishop of Rome ie the first pope.

That conclusion is comically incorrect.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

BeyondET said:
There is no solid evidence, textual or even archaeological that Peter died in Rome or even visited Rome, thats another made up fantasy. No Peter's remains wasn't found in 68 near the vatican that alone speaks for itself.

Starting around the end of the second century, Christian pilgrims went to see Peter's tropaion. But a tropaion is not a tomb.

Saint Peter's remains were found (re-discovered) at the end of WW II.

RandyPNW · Feb 6, 2024

Valletta said:
Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22 (as RileyG mentioned) that Jews of the day would have recognized, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). Of all of the Apostles, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter alone. In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the office of prime minister becomes vacant, a new prime minister is chosen.

Yes, Peter was the lead apostle among the 12. But I think that Jesus would hardly give the ability to bring Salvation only to Peter's ministry? Peter represented the fact that *each of the 12* were to be "rocks," like Peter, and so operate using the keys of the Kingdom. Don't you think?

ozso · Feb 6, 2024

Valletta said:
Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22 (as RileyG mentioned) that Jews of the day would have recognized, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). Of all of the Apostles, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter alone. In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the office of prime minister becomes vacant, a new prime minister is chosen.

“In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. Isaiah 22:20-22

And I tell you that you are Peter (the Greek word for Peter means rock.), and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:18-19

That's actually pretty compelling.

ozso · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
That conclusion is comically incorrect.

You're the one who's made a laughingstock of himself.

ozso · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Saint Peter's remains were found (re-discovered) at the end of WW II.

Right next to the Letter of Clement proclaiming him the first pope no doubt.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

Ceallaigh said:
You're the one who's made a laughingstock of himself.

I gave you a list of the popes that started with saint Peter. I said nothing whatever about saint Clement being its author. That is an amusing idea, he would have to occasionally rise from the grave and carve a new name as each earthly Pope died. That is hilarious.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

Ceallaigh said:
Right next to the Letter of Clement proclaiming him the first pope no doubt.

Perhaps one day you will look up the letter of Clement to the Corinthians. When you do you can look back on your post and have a good laugh.

RandyPNW · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
The Catholic Church is not superior but it is older and it is the Church that Christ builds.

I'm not against the Catholic Church. It is the origin of Christianity, since Christianity began in the Roman Empire. I do respect the many things the Catholic Church has done in history. But it must be willing to place Christ and Scripture over its own government.

And often, it has failed to do so, except that it is willing to reform *in its own way,* refusing to submit to outside criticism. That is not "mutual submission," which is what Paul called for us to do. It is not the "meek spirit" that Christ called for us to exhibit.

However, there have been many meek popes, priests, monks, and saints. God bless their memories!

I'm concerned about the dilution of Christian spirituality within the Catholic Church, as tradition seems to have replaced genuine spirituality and faith. I'm concerned about those who spend more time defending a church tradition than Christian truth, which alone can save!

This can happen and does happen in every Church Denomination, East and West. We all need to regularly "examine ourselves." And we must put Christ even above our own families. That is genuine commitment to Christ.

RandyPNW · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Yet saint Paul calls himself the father of the Christians in Corinth.

Yes, Paul is using "father' in the familial sense, to indicate an intimate, loving connection between older Christians and younger Christians who are viewed as having shared a history together.

Jesus referred to the kind of "father" that appears to have some kind of political status, such as authority over someone, as a father has authority over his children. These are two separate uses of the same word, "father."

We are not to give fatherly authority to fellow Christians in the political sense, as if they have authority over our Salvation. But we can treat them as elders, and give them respect for the experience and knowledge they have.

RandyPNW · Feb 6, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
The Church in Rome did; have you never read saint Paul's letter to the Romans?

The Catholic Church was not a State Church until after Theodosius. Then the Pope acquired greater status in terms of Church organization and representation of the territory around Rome.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

RandyPNW said:
But it must be willing to place Christ and Scripture over its own government.

Dei Verbum, the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION, explains how the Catholic Church understand the holy scriptures. [click here to read it]

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 6, 2024

RandyPNW said:
The Catholic Church was not a State Church until after Theodosius. Then the Pope acquired greater status in terms of Church organization and representation of the territory around Rome.

The point I intended to make is that saint Paul wrote a letter (called Romans) addressed to the church in Rome.

What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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