What Is Marriage?

dayhiker · Feb 23, 2008

OllieFranz said:
Actually it was originally a very formal contract, involving a bride price, a dowery, and clearly defined terms for dissolution (divorce). But a private one between the groom and the bride and/or the father of one or both, neither involving the government nor the religious authorities. The government was the first to get invoved, in early historic times, and originally only as an arbiter when one or both sides broke the terms of the contract.

The Church did not get involved until the Middle Ages, and then partly because it had become an arm of the government, which, among other secular duties, recorded births, deaths and other vital statistics, and partially because people wanted God's blessing on their marriage.

I agree with you, Ollie. Thst was a pretty good history of marriage.

I do think if one goes back further, Abraham's time and earlier that one find its a less formal agreement. The poor also often had less formal agreements thru much of history. Slaves in Roman just moved in with who ever the master allowed them to. Before Martin Luther there were a lot of personal marraiges that had no form agreement beyond the couple themselves.

So my study of the history marriage has it changing a lot over time and even within a specific age there are variations on the theme.

Which is why I've come to see the churches promotion of the 1950's style marriage of working husband stay at home mom as the idea is pretty deceptive in my mind.

I believe God is involved an all marriages and the style is 2ndary to how the man and woman treat each other.

dayhiker

dayhiker · Feb 23, 2008

Silenus said:
There are other forms of worship . . . High church litergy has always sat nicely with me when feeling overly hand clapped . . .

I'd encourage you, however, to remember that Jesus never presented a relationship with Him as an individual thing. It is always presented as something that takes place in a church body, in fellowship with other believers. That it is detrimental to be severed from the body. Perhaps you are right that you are being extended grace for a time, but nature as church is not how Jesus taught us to worship him. We are to be one as he and the father are one.

Anyway, I'm always reminded that our picture of heaven is the body of Christ worshipping together.

I know the Bible talks about the community of believers, but I don't think you represent Jesus accurately in saying he never talked about a relationship with him individually.

Jesus said if we don't forsake mother father etc to follow him we aren't worthy of him. Now that sounds pretty individualistic to me.

Armistead · Feb 23, 2008

Chajara said:
To answer your question, I have never felt particularly comfortable worshiping in a church. The singing, hand waving, praying out loud, and other things are fine if other people are doing them but when I am pressured to do the same I feel very uncomfortable. My spirituality is just very personal to me I guess.

I've found that I feel God's presence most when I'm out communing with nature. I can sit in a church and listen to a message and that's great, but then if I go out into the quiet forest afterward and just sit and ponder it, that's when I feel close to God. That's when I worship. I've always done it by myself, and it feels completely wrong to do it in front of other people. I don't know why, perhaps it's just my personality combined with my vast love for the Earth. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm happier without being extensively involved in a church.

Of course, that could just be God providing for me for now. Once we get settled in where we're supposed to be and God provides us a good church, I'll probably feel the pull to go more often and feel less satisfied with solo worship.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

I loved that post. I always feel closer in worship when I'm alone. I go to church, but mostly to serve and work with youth. I don't have a problem with worship per say, but I often see people just trying to outdo each other.
In some churches I've been, It becomes almost silly.

I have woods and a lake behind my house. I have a prayer spot of sorts. At night, when I hear the wind blowing through the trees, the sounds of all insects and creatures, I find God. I like the peace. To look up at the stars in amazement.

Loved your post.

Armistead · Feb 23, 2008

dayhiker said:
I know the Bible talks about the community of believers, but I don't think you represent Jesus accurately in saying he never talked about a relationship with him individually.

Jesus said if we don't forsake mother father etc to follow him we aren't worthy of him. Now that sounds pretty individualistic to me.

Careful with the metaphors day, but I agree with the intent.

Silenus · Feb 24, 2008

I know the Bible talks about the community of believers, but I don't think you represent Jesus accurately in saying he never talked about a relationship with him individually.

Jesus said if we don't forsake mother father etc to follow him we aren't worthy of him. Now that sounds pretty individualistic to me.

Yes, true, and ultimately we are judges individually. But, when I said "an individual thing," Jesus and Paul never speak of a relationship with Christ lived apart from the body of believes . . . in John he specifically says, chapter 17 . . .

Joh 17:16-23
(16) They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
(17) Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
(18) As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
(19) And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
(20) "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
(21) that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
(22) The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
(23) I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

This is a foundational verse, although there are many others that speak to how Christians are to be a unified body and a visible community.

Koey · Feb 24, 2008

The only problem with that is that we are not unified, as you well know.

Also, there are exceptions like the Ethiopian Eunuch, who obviously was not going back to a church community after his baptism.

In cases where you live where there is a domineering church that persecutes Christians of other denominations (as in Orthodox Russia, or Catholic Austria), what do you do?

What if your personal Christian faith is not acceptable to the few churches in your small town?

What if your once faithful church is now led by homosexual-ordaining watered down liberals?

Silenus · Feb 24, 2008

The only problem with that is that we are not unified, as you well know.

okay, sure, we do not have one church and that church doesn't exist everywhere on the globe, but I don't think it means the same as not unified.. but i don't know how any of this applies to the present discussion . . . but here I go.

Also, there are exceptions like the Ethiopian Eunuch, who obviously was not going back to a church community after his baptism.

Sure, he was going to plant one . . . a missionary is a missionary

In cases where you live where there is a domineering church that persecutes Christians of other denominations (as in Orthodox Russia, or Catholic Austria), what do you do?

The same thing the persecuted church did from its beginning.

What if your personal Christian faith is not acceptable to the few churches in your small town?

Are you under these churches? Submit to their unless they are asking you to do something you think is heretical. Are you looking for a church to go to? Find a denomination you agree with, contact the closest church of that denomination for instructions on church planting and plant a church. If that doesn't work, drive further. If you can't, and no church will accept you, then you have a situation where you must try to find accoutability and fellowship through extrodonary circsumstances. now if only someone would invent a phone or the internet. These are not substitutes, mind you, but drastic times call for drastic measures.

What if your once faithful church is now led by homosexual-ordaining watered down liberals?

Submit a letter to the leadership stating you desire to lead, go through channels, and leave on good terms . . .

Koey · Feb 25, 2008

Some good comments... much of which I agree with in after a fashion, if not as simplistically as stated. Only one thing I drastically disagree with. Nothing states that the Ethiopian Eunuch was a missionary.

Silenus · Feb 25, 2008

Nothing states that the Ethiopian Eunuch was a missionary.

No, but he's a new christian, and if he goes back to his native land, what do you think he will be doing? He's a christian in a land of non-christians and he has a local synagoge (there was an ethiopian jewish community at this time), but no local church . . .

missionary is his default position

Koey · Feb 25, 2008

So, are you saying that any Christian, does therefore not need to go to church, because their "default" position is a missionary? That, sort of supports the idea that church-going is unnecessary? Or, are you saying something else?

Silenus · Feb 26, 2008

So, are you saying that any Christian, does therefore not need to go to church, because their "default" position is a missionary? That, sort of supports the idea that church-going is unnecessary? Or, are you saying something else?

nope, I said that he didn't have a church to go to . . . there was no Ethiopian church . . . hence, if he returned home, he would be missionary trying to plant a church . . . He can't go to an Etheopian church if one doesn't exist

What Is Marriage?

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