What is marriage?

leecappella · Oct 28, 2003

job24 said:
Marriage is a bond between a man and a woman where they share a period of time together until either one dies or either one decides to end the relatioship. At first marriage is from infatuation love where the individual is sexually attracted to that person and then it flows into long lasting love where the man and the woman grow into long lasting love and that is when they have a mutual respect for one another under God and attempt to procreate to enhance there family.

me: I'm assuming that it's fine with you if they decide not to procreate to enhance their family, right? Just wondering based on your words.

vajradhara · Oct 28, 2003

onionring said:
I believe that people want to generalize the word marriage to include other concepts (eg. same sex unions) in an attempt to qualify the ideas as legitmate. Not based on the "new" concepts own merits, but on those of the already established definition. So instead of getting a new word...they try and qualify it through misuse of an establish one.

Namaste onionring,

indeed... much like the word "love". people claim that they love hamburgers, that they love penny loafers (some people do), that they love a certain movie or television show. they don't love those things.

they co-opt a word that has a specific useage and meaning and try to make it mean something else. not coming up with a new word to describe their fondness for juicy flesh lumps (juicy... heh. what kind of juice is found in meat?)

i've got no problem with folks using the word marriage to describe their commitment to each other that is a recognized legal covenant, same sex, no sex or otherwise.

vajradhara · Oct 28, 2003

The Fireman said:
The word marriage comes from Matrimony. Matrimony is a sacrament of the Catholic Church. This is defined by the Church in a way that leaves out many other forms of unions between people. Neither I or the Church is saying that there doesn't exist a real type of commitment between persons in other types of unions not recognized as the sacrament of Matrimony. Just that it is not Sacramental Matrimony. In conclusion I would say that marriage in it's strictest sense is only between man and woman, monogamous and until death. But I will say that these other forms of unions that exist are not always evil or the opposite of virtuous, they just are not marriage. Something else just not marriage.

Namaste fireman,

umm... no, it doesn't.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: mar·riage

Pronunciation: 'mar-ij also 'mer-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Old French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a : the state of being married b : the mutual relation of husband and wife : [size=-1]WEDLOCK[/size] c : the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry -- J. T. Shawcross>

so... that should clear things up for you. you can now support same sex marriages as they are not Matrimony as defined by the church... they are married as in definition 2.

The Fireman · Oct 28, 2003

As long as no one attempts to call it matrimony.

Still the word marriage can be linked to the word matrimony. But lets not split hairs, the real word for it is Matrimony.

So I guess you can respect the Churches case on not allowing same sex Matrimony. You see there is no such thing! It doesn't exist!

Of course I or the Church is not saying that there is not committment in these other unions.

There are people our there trying to get the Church to change it's position on this. Probably not you.

Thanks,

The Fireman

leecappella · Oct 29, 2003

vajradhara: i've got no problem with folks using the word marriage to describe their commitment to each other that is a recognized legal covenant, same sex, no sex or otherwise.

me: I personally think that's all well and good, but does the commitment between two really have to be legally recognized to be acceptable as a marriage? I don't think so! I mean, the leaglity of marriage does not add to the spirtuality of marriage. A marriage is more spiritual than legal.

leecappella · Oct 29, 2003

vajradhara said:
Namaste fireman,

umm... no, it doesn't.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: mar·riage

Pronunciation: 'mar-ij also 'mer-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Old French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a : the state of being married b : the mutual relation of husband and wife : [size=-1]WEDLOCK[/size] c : the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry -- J. T. Shawcross>

so... that should clear things up for you. you can now support same sex marriages as they are not Matrimony as defined by the church... they are married as in definition 2.

me: Uh, what's the definition of marriage as it is defined in the language of the bible, as opposed to as it is defined to the language of our day and time and culture?

vajradhara · Oct 29, 2003

The Fireman said:
As long as no one attempts to call it matrimony.

Still the word marriage can be linked to the word matrimony. But lets not split hairs, the real word for it is Matrimony.

So I guess you can respect the Churches case on not allowing same sex Matrimony. You see there is no such thing! It doesn't exist!

Of course I or the Church is not saying that there is not committment in these other unions.

There are people our there trying to get the Church to change it's position on this. Probably not you.

Thanks,

The Fireman

Namaste fireman,

hmm... let's look up the definition of Matrimony, shall we?

Main Entry: mat·ri·mo·ny

Pronunciation: 'ma-tr&-"mO-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French matremoine, from Latin matrimonium, from matr-, mater mother, matron -- more at [size=-1]MOTHER[/size]
Date: 14th century
: the union of man and woman as husband and wife : [size=-1]MARRIAGE[/size]

so... from this we can see that Matrimony is the word that is used to describe the marriage between a woman and a man.

excellent! now... all the hetro couples can say that they are wed in holy Matrimony and the homosexual couples can say that they are Married. see how easy it is when we actually call things by their right names? Confucious used this very same method during the collapse of the Golden Empire of China to restore social order and stability.

vajradhara · Oct 29, 2003

leecappella said:
vajradhara: i've got no problem with folks using the word marriage to describe their commitment to each other that is a recognized legal covenant, same sex, no sex or otherwise.

me: I personally think that's all well and good, but does the commitment between two really have to be legally recognized to be acceptable as a marriage? I don't think so! I mean, the leaglity of marriage does not add to the spirtuality of marriage. A marriage is more spiritual than legal.

Namaste leecappella,

yes, it does. one of the points of marriage is the legal bringing together of two disparate peoples finiancial issues, another is the legal ability for a spouse to make legally binding decisions for their partner. without the legal recognition given to a marriage ceremony, parents, for instance, would decide what happened to you at the time of death, rather than your spouse.

there are a myriad of reasons that marriage is also a legal ceremony.. on top of the spiritual binding. of course, if one is truly spiritually bound to another, a public ceremony is trivial and of no consequence to them... they will still feel bound to each other.

the marriage is the enactment of the legal covenant between two individuals.

vajradhara · Oct 29, 2003

leecappella said:
vajradhara said:

Namaste fireman,

umm... no, it doesn't.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: mar·riage

Pronunciation: 'mar-ij also 'mer-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Old French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a : the state of being married b : the mutual relation of husband and wife : [size=-1]WEDLOCK[/size] c : the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry -- J. T. Shawcross>

so... that should clear things up for you. you can now support same sex marriages as they are not Matrimony as defined by the church... they are married as in definition 2.

me: Uh, what's the definition of marriage as it is defined in the language of the bible, as opposed to as it is defined to the language of our day and time and culture?

Click to expand...

Namaste Leecappella,

i have little interest in using the Bible as a dictonary. If you'd like to explain what the definition of the word in the Bible is, please do so.

leecappella · Oct 29, 2003

vajradhara said:
Namaste leecappella,

yes, it does. one of the points of marriage is the legal bringing together of two disparate peoples finiancial issues, another is the legal ability for a spouse to make legally binding decisions for their partner. without the legal recognition given to a marriage ceremony, parents, for instance, would decide what happened to you at the time of death, rather than your spouse.

there are a myriad of reasons that marriage is also a legal ceremony.. on top of the spiritual binding. of course, if one is truly spiritually bound to another, a public ceremony is trivial and of no consequence to them... they will still feel bound to each other.

the marriage is the enactment of the legal covenant between two individuals

me: I never said that marriage had nothing to do with legalities. I said that it is more a spiritual thing than a legal. It is both, but more so spiritual. Adam and Eve had no legal ties nor a piece of paper confirming their union. Theirs even was an arranged marriage, if you think about it.

leecappella · Oct 29, 2003

vajradhara said:
Namaste Leecappella,

i have little interest in using the Bible as a dictonary. If you'd like to explain what the definition of the word in the Bible is, please do so.

me: One does not use the bible to define terms. One gets the terms from the texts and one looks them up to see what was meant by the authors who wrote them. To look them up in a modern day dictionary would imply that the authors of antiquity defined words like we do in our modern day and time. For me, it is best to define biblical words with the use of bible concordances and dictionaries that define words and terms as they are defined in the language of the text.

Mark 2:4 - 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

Dictionary.com defines 'press' as the following:

press[size=-1]1[/size]

([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (pr

s)
v. pressed, press·ing, press·es
v. tr.

To exert steady weight or force against; bear down on.

<LI type=a>To squeeze the juice or other contents from.

To extract (juice, for example) by squeezing or compressing.

<LI type=a>To reshape or make compact by applying steady force; compress.

To iron (clothing, for example).

To clasp in fondness or politeness.

To try to influence, as by insistent arguments; importune or entreat: He pressed her for a reply.

To urge or force to action; impel.

To place in trying or distressing circumstances; harass or oppress.

To move (keys on a computer keyboard, for example) by applying pressure.

To lay stress on; emphasize.

To advance or carry on vigorously: Far from backing down, he pressed the attack (Justin Kaplan).

To put forward importunately or insistently: press an argument.

To make (a phonograph record or videodisc) from a mold or matrix.

Sports. To lift (a weight) to a position above the head without moving the legs.

This modern day defining of 'press' does not fit in the text in question. The only ones that could apply refer to pressure being placed upon something. In the case of the text, someone. In the greek, however, the term 'press' means a crowd of people. The crowd may have been placing force or pressure upon the individual in the text (I need to read the text), but the term 'press' refers to the crowd, not the pressure of the crowd. Same word, spelled the same, but different meaning. Our modern day dictionaries, whether a physical book or an online dictionary usually defines marriage between a man and a woman. If anyone has a bible concordance of hebrew and greek definitions, please post those that define marriage as only between a man and a woman. The name of the bible source would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks.

vajradhara · Oct 29, 2003

leecappella said:
me: One does not use the bible to define terms. One gets the terms from the texts and one looks them up to see what was meant by the authors who wrote them. To look them up in a modern day dictionary would imply that the authors of antiquity defined words like we do in our modern day and time. For me, it is best to define biblical words with the use of bible concordances and dictionaries that define words and terms as they are defined in the language of the text.

Namaste,

ok.. i'm confused

in your previous post you stated:

me: Uh, what's the definition of marriage as it is defined in the language of the bible, as opposed to as it is defined to the language of our day and time and culture?

this seems pretty clear and unequivical. perhaps i misunderstood what you were trying to communicate? it happens, especially with me.

Mark 2:4 - 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

Dictionary.com defines 'press' as the following:

press[size=-1]1[/size]

([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (pr

s)
v. pressed, press·ing, press·es
v. tr.

To exert steady weight or force against; bear down on.

<LI type=a>To squeeze the juice or other contents from.

To extract (juice, for example) by squeezing or compressing.

<LI type=a>To reshape or make compact by applying steady force; compress.

To iron (clothing, for example).

To clasp in fondness or politeness.

To try to influence, as by insistent arguments; importune or entreat: He pressed her for a reply.

To urge or force to action; impel.

To place in trying or distressing circumstances; harass or oppress.

To move (keys on a computer keyboard, for example) by applying pressure.

To lay stress on; emphasize.

To advance or carry on vigorously: Far from backing down, he pressed the attack (Justin Kaplan).

To put forward importunately or insistently: press an argument.

To make (a phonograph record or videodisc) from a mold or matrix.

Sports. To lift (a weight) to a position above the head without moving the legs.

This modern day defining of 'press' does not fit in the text in question. The only ones that could apply refer to pressure being placed upon something. In the case of the text, someone. In the greek, however, the term 'press' means a crowd of people. The crowd may have been placing force or pressure upon the individual in the text (I need to read the text), but the term 'press' refers to the crowd, not the pressure of the crowd. Same word, spelled the same, but different meaning. Our modern day dictionaries, whether a physical book or an online dictionary usually defines marriage between a man and a woman. If anyone has a bible concordance of hebrew and greek definitions, please post those that define marriage as only between a man and a woman. The name of the bible source would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks.

the phrase was rendered poorly. if it had said "press of people" or "press of the crowd" it would be clear and unequivical as well.. however, a simple glance at the text confirms that the unstated words in this are "people" or "crowd". the Greek text is very clear on this. English, however, is in many ways a very poor language... this is a prime example.

let's talk about the word being used, however. there are several different greek words that are translated as "press". it's not accurate to say that the word press is Greek for crowd, though there is one that is, however, it's spelled differently in the Greek.

Let's take a look and see what we can find out.

in the chapter quoted:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 2:4[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.[/font]

here, press is Greek Word: O[cloß, Transliterated Word: ochlos.
let's take a look at the rest of the words that are "press" in english, the Bold is the Greek and the other is the transliteration:

biavzw [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]biazo
[/font]ajpoqlivbw [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]apothlibo
sunevcw [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]sunecho [/font]
ejpipivptw [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]epipipto [/font]

each of those definitions means something different.. each of them are equally called "press" in english.

please review this link for more indepth information:
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=press&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

let me show you what i mean...

biavzw =

to use force, to apply force
to force, inflict violence on

ajpoqlivbw =

to press on all sides, squeeze, press hard
a. of pressing out grapes and olives

sunevcw =

to hold together
1. any whole, lest it fall to pieces or something fall away from it
to hold together with constraint, to compress
1. to press together with the hand
2. to hold one's ears, to shut the heavens that it may not rain
3. to press on every side
  1. of a besieged city
  2. of a strait, that forces a ship into a narrow channel
  3. of a cattle squeeze, that pushing in on each side, forcing the beast into a position where it cannot move so the farmer can administer medication
to hold completely
1. to hold fast
  1. of a prisoner
2. metaph.
  1. to be held by, closely occupied with any business
  2. in teaching the word
  3. to constrain, oppress, of ills laying hold of one and distressing him
  4. to be held with, afflicted with, suffering from
  5. to urge, impel 3b
of the soul

o[cloß = (this is the word that's in Mark)

a crowd
a casual collection of people
1. a multitude of men who have flocked together in some place
2. a throng
a multitude
1. the common people, as opposed to the rulers and leading men
2. with contempt: the ignorant multitude, the populace
a multitude
1. the multitudes, seems to denote troops of people gathered together without order

ejpipivptw =

to fall upon, to rush or press upon
to lie upon one
to fall into one's embrace
to fall back upon

metaph.
1. to fall upon one i.e. to seize, take possession of him
  1. of the Holy Spirit, in his inspiration and impulse
  2. of reproaches cast upon one

i hope that helps clear up any confusion or misunderstanding.

[/font]

Adah · Oct 29, 2003

Another question - How does one know that their marriage has been ordained by God or if it is a self-made marriage between two people.

leecappella · Oct 30, 2003

Adah said:
Another question - How does one know that their marriage has been ordained by God or if it is a self-made marriage between two people.

me: What's a self made marriage? Example!

Adah · Oct 30, 2003

A self-made marriage is actually a part of the question so I will attempt to rephrase the question. How does one discern if God is joining two people together in marriage or if the joining is according to the will of the individuals without God even being considered a part of the joining? Without God, is there "marriage"?

JillLars · Oct 30, 2003

I think that if two people are including God in their marriage and following the biblical guidelines for marriage (love and cherish, no adultery, ect.) then one can assume that the marriage is of God. I think that people need to make a conscious decision to include God in their marriage, and follow the biblical guidelines for a marital relationship, it isn't something that just magically happens. Without God, there is marriage it just isn't "of God", that doesn't neccesarily make it a bad thing. If that makes sense.

Adah · Oct 30, 2003

So marriage can be entered into sacredly or unsacredly. How do you think God views marriage vows that are not taken as sacred?

Guilty Jester · Nov 3, 2003

Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, Voodoo, Politician, Gay, etc...

Marriage is a gamble.

What is marriage?

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