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duordi

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If dolphins had intelegence of people they would develope communication to the point that if we didn't communicate with them they would communicate with us.

As this is not the case I have assigned the fact that many wish the animals to be aware to the watching of to many Desney movies.

This brings us to an interesting point.
The intelegence of animals must have been measured scientifically.
So the maximum intellegence of an animal is which animal and has the equivelent intelegence of what age of a human.

Duane
 
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duordi

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We are not all animals because we have the ability to choose.

Understanding the process which allows this does not suddenly change that we are different from animals.

You description does however suggest that the thinking process can be duplicated which is my reason for starting the discussion.

I have searched for a scientific attempt at this with a computer program with no success.

Is this still beyond technical ability or is there more to it then the process you described?

Has this been accomplished in an animal ( have we made a smart chimp?)

Duane
 
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Beastt

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Though you're obviously not aware of this, dolphins have a very complex communication system which must be recorded and slowed down before feeble human hearing can even sort out the data. And while many animals have been taught forms of human communication, humans seem significantly inferior at mimicking the languages of other animals. Gorillas and parrots have been taught human languages, (not just replication of the sounds but actual communication skills as well as demonstrating the ability to combine known words to represent objects for which they have been taught no specific words). The closest humans seem to have come is to decypher the dance bees perform to indicate the direction and distance to sources of pollen.

You're placing humans on a pedestal which doesn't exist at the height you suggest.
 
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Beastt

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We are not all animals because we have the ability to choose.
This causes me to wonder if you've ever even been around any animals. Animals most certainly can make choices. To suggest otherwise simply cannot be supported. A dog may want a treat resting on a counter and might rise to try to retrieve the desired food item. Upon being admonished by a person, an animal might sometimes give up his quest to obtain the food item and other times will snatch it quickly before dropping back to all fours. In each instance, the animal has made a choice to either seek what it desires, (the food item), or seek to satisfy the communicated desires of a member of its pack, (which is what we become when we keep dogs as pets).

Understanding the process which allows this does not suddenly change that we are different from animals.
You can state this as often as you wish but it will do nothing to change some facts you may not be terribly comfortable with.

Fact 1: Humans are animals

Fact 2: Humans are mammals

Fact 3: Humans are primates

There is nothing you can do or say which will change those facts.

You description does however suggest that the thinking process can be duplicated which is my reason for starting the discussion.
There is no known reason why thinking, (either that of humans or that of other animals), can't be replicated at a mechanical or bio-mechanical level.

I have searched for a scientific attempt at this with a computer program with no success.
Perhaps you lack the necessary understanding of the difference between the working of an electrical circuit and that of an animal brain such as that of a human. I tried to explain some of the basics, but not only was the explanation extremely simplified for the purposes of the forum, it was likely still too complex for anyone who can't allow themselves to come to grips with the fact that human brains are animal brains. The only difference is the number of neurons.

Is this still beyond technical ability or is there more to it then the process you described?
It is currently still beyond the ability of man to replicate a truly "thinking" machine. Current research suggests that the first successes may come from merging biological components with electrical and mechanical components.

Has this been accomplished in an animal ( have we made a smart chimp?)
Certainly not. A the complexity of a chimpanzee brain is so decidedly above the current aspirations of neural network research that no such attempt has even been made. Were we able to replicate the functioning of a chimpanzee brain in a synthetic neural network, a functioning synthetic human brain would be only a few years behind. The technology would be precisely the same. Assuming something akin to Moore's Law were applicable, it would take approximate 6-years to progress from a synthetic equivalent of a chimpanzee brain to that of a human. All that would be necessary is to increase the number of nodes in the network.

Let me ask you this; why do you think human brains and the brains of non-human animals are substantially different in their abilities? From where does such a notion arise?
 
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fromdownunder

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You seem to have reached the point where you believe that self awareness and sentinence is purely based on questioning ones own existance in the context of the suprnatural (i.e, the existence of gods). In which case, I respectfully bow out of the discussion and say only that I doubt if computers which only work on the basis of "0" and "1" will ever reach a point of self awareness.

Your definition of "life" is far too narrow, and in any event, I doubt that computers will ever reach even a primative form of "life"

Norm
 
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Gracchus

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So you are saying that a dolphin realizes it is thinking?

Then why can I not form a language with the dolphin which we can use to discuss Gods existance.

Duane

Perhaps for the same reason a moron can't form a language with a physicist which they can use to discuss string theory.

If dolphins had intelegence of people they would develope communication to the point that if we didn't communicate with them they would communicate with us.

I think dolphins are smart enough to realize the futility of trying to communicate with idiots. The dolphin intelligence deals with a different sensorium and a different environment.

Gottservant said:
As this is not the case I have assigned the fact that many wish the animals to be aware to the watching of to many Desney movies.

You have assigned a fact? What does that mean?

Gottservant said:
This brings us to an interesting point.
The intelegence of animals must have been measured scientifically.
So the maximum intellegence of an animal is which animal and has the equivelent intelegence of what age of a human.

How much i-n-t-e-l-l-i-g-e-n-c-e does it take to use the forum spell checker?

And it would seem that there is no such thing as "intelligence" per se, just a set of problem solving skills.

Nevertheless, baby chimps are better at solving problems than human babies of the same age until the babies learn to talk.

 
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duordi

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Everyone has a God, even you do.

If you consider yourself the highest life form that exists then you consider yourself God.

The thought that oneself is God is not a new idea of course.

Acient peoples have worshiped animals spiders and even rocks.

Of course, I am assuming that you do believe that you exist.

Duane
 
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duordi

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Let me ask you this; why do you think human brains and the brains of non-human animals are substantially different in their abilities? From where does such a notion arise?

There is a difference between animals and humans due to abilities.

Living matter is made from the same atoms as non living matter however we do not say that living matter is no different then nonliving matter because living matter has the ability to reproduce and adapt.

So it is the abilities that life has that make it unique.

In the same way although we are similar in structure to animals they are not aware and therefore have no moral issues, while we do.

We have the unique ability to change the course of species variation which could cause great moral good.

We also have or soon will have the ability to exterminate the planet.

Monkeys don't unless your watching Disney movie.

By the way if I was uncomfortable with the idea that intelligence might be created by mankind I would not have started this thread which contemplates an aware
computer program.

Duane
 
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duordi

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A computer can communicate faster then I can and it is still dead.
We are trying to understand the Bee's language.
The bee is not trying to understand our language.
That is the difference.

Duane
 
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duordi

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I have a general question for all.

If a chimp was found that was aware and could be communicated with on our mental level in his/her language or ours, the animal would be placed on a pedestal.

If the same intelligent being happened to be human there seems to be a great reluctance on the part of this group to acknowledge an intelligence beyond a dolphins.

Apparently we have prejudices against mankind in favor of animals and not just between ourselves.

Do you agree or disagree that we have this prejudice and why or why not?

Duane
 
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Chalnoth

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That's not a prejudice against humans, just a statement that we are amazed at things which we believe to be impossible. It should certainly be impossible for a chimpanzee, which has only a fraction of the brain size as that of a human, could ever converse with a human on an equal level.

Of course, if chimpanzees are taught language, they can converse with humans, but more on the level of a small child, not an equal level.
 
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J

jamesrwright3

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You can state this as often as you wish but it will do nothing to change some facts you may not be terribly comfortable with.

The fact is are brains are qualitatively different from any animal

There is no known reason why thinking, (either that of humans or that of other animals), can't be replicated at a mechanical or bio-mechanical level.

I have not seen anywhere that we could teach a machine to learn on its own and actually think without human intervention to set parameters.
Computers may eventually reach the computational power of the human brain in the year 2030 according to many experts, but still, that doesn't mean they will be able to think. They would still need to be programmed at some level and have paramters set so they would still be qualitivately different from a human brain
 
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Loudmouth

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If dolphins had intelegence of people they would develope communication to the point that if we didn't communicate with them they would communicate with us.

What would they say? "Thanks for all the fish"?

You assume that an intelligence sufficient for pondering the existence of the supernatural is also sufficient for communicating with another species. I don't see how you can justify this assumption. Also, it is very apparent that dolphins do communicate with each other but humans have not been able to decipher that communication. We can not speak dolphinese.

This brings us to an interesting point.
The intelegence of animals must have been measured scientifically.
So the maximum intellegence of an animal is which animal and has the equivelent intelegence of what age of a human.

Duane

We are not talking about problem solving skills, which is what these intelligence quotients measure. We are talking about the ability to ponder the existence of a deity. You have not shown how the two are linked.
 
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Loudmouth

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I have a general question for all.

If a chimp was found that was aware and could be communicated with on our mental level in his/her language or ours, the animal would be placed on a pedestal.

The gorilla Koko used sign language and communicated very human-like emotions. You can read about it here.
 
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duordi

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The gorilla Koko used sign language and communicated very human-like emotions. You can read about it here.

Fascinating.

I could not find anything she had said, only that she was taught the sigh language.

Did she ask questions like, why are you making me learn this stuff.

I have a cat that rubs my leg every morning.
This means feed me.
Standing at the door means open the door.

Although there are a few other meanings our conversations remain at about this level.

Duane
 
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duordi

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I find nothing I disagree with in this.

Duane
 
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