What Is Hell?

[DavidPresently]

Because I opened the can of worms in another thread, but don't want it to get carried off topic from the OP subject, I'm starting this thread for discussion of the concept of Hell.

I am fully aware of the traditional Christian concept of Hell and what that means, having been taught such my entire childhood in a Baptist denomination. I do not agree with it, however, after much research/study, and prayer. It never sat right in my spirit, with a check always being there when someone mentioned eternal torture. As I got older, I studied to find out the truth of the matter in Scripture, and early church history.

Scripture and early church history is amazingly void of any doctrine on Hell being a place of torture without end (infinite, eternal). Scripture actually has no doctrine of Hell, period, though the concept of the place called Hell exists. In other words, though the mention of Hell is in Scripture, there is no in-depth teaching about such a place in order to form coherent doctrine that church leaders should require all believers agree with.

In the Hebrew and Greek portions of Scripture, Hell is the English name given for the abode of the dead, or the place where dead men await the resurrection. In the Hebrew concept of such, all men would be resurrected, just as the New Testament confirms, some to further punishment and some to rule with Messiah, inheriting the Kingdom.

The early church kept this Hebrew concept, which Jesus affirmed and did not deny, agreeing with the Old Testament Scripture he gave through his prophets of old.

The modern concept of a place of eternal torment did not enter Christian literature until generations after the original followers of Christ wrote the New Testament. All of the "church fathers" who later popularized the idea of eternal torment were Greeks or Romans.

Do a study of ancient Greco-Roman ideals concerning Hell, and you'll find that the modern Christian idea is identical to the ancient pagan idea.

In other words, the modern Christian idea of eternal torment is pagan, not scriptural. Yes, it is popular and widespread, but that doesn't make it right. The original Jewish believers would have never approved of such "doctrine."

Furthermore, most Christians confuse the idea of Hell and the Second Death (Lake of Fire). In Scripture these are two totally different things. Hell is the place the dead await resurrection to judgment, and the Lake of Fire is the Second Death (meaning there was a first with the same ingredients). If you look at what will be thrown into the Second Death, you should easily notice that every ingredient that will be in that experience of Death exists right now in this experience of Death (since Adam fell until we were made spiritually alive in Christ).

In other words, the Second Death, scripturally, is where the unrighteous resurrected people will go. We will inherit the Kingdom and already be ruling/reigning with Christ. We are the firstfruits. Only those who overcome in this age, in Christ, will reign with Christ, according to Scripture. However, Scripture clearly states, more than once, in the New Testament, that all will one day bow and confess and the Savior will save all.

Going back to the OT prophets, we can see descriptions similar to the Lake of Fire that show us the Fire is meant to REFINE men, not be a place of everlasting torture. Yes, it will hurt, just like Death stings now, but the whole purpose of God in the Fire is to refine or destroy. To refine what is eternal (the spirit of man) and destroy what is not (such as the corrupt flesh of man).

Thus the idea of the burning of the chaff. The chaff is the useless part of the wheat. God will destroy what is useless by the Fire, but refine the gold and silver in it. What can be burned will be destroyed, and what cannot be burned will remain, but be refined.

The idea of God as a Refiner with a Refiner's Fire is Scriptural, from the Hebrew Scripture. The idea of God as a torturer of souls for eternity without end is not found in Scripture, not once.

If I've missed where Scripture teaches the modern idea of eternal torture, simply show it. I will look at the original languages, and context of anything you quote, and make my conclusion that way. I recommend every other Christian do the same, and not be bound to traditional sacred cow doctrine just because it is convenient, and draws no displeasure/persecution from the party line.

Do not accuse me of not believing in Hell or the Lake of Fire. I do believe in such. I simply stick to what I see that Scripture says about such and don't add concepts to it that are not in Scripture, to spread fear of eternal torture, and the devil winning the war of souls.

 

[DavidPresently]

Svt4Him quoted me and replied:

age-long is mistranslated as "forever" by traditional interpreters, but does not mean eternity.
​

Oh man, we've gone around and around this forever and ever. Does God's glory ever end, as it is age-long? It does in fact mean eternity or forever or even forever and ever, but the problem is to accept this truth, means your belief system will have to change. This is a pratt, or point refuted a thousand times.

I am fully aware of such argument. When responding, please keep in mind that I was raised with the "doctrine of eternal torment in hell for the unbeliever" since early childhood, in the Southern Baptist Church as the son of a conservative Pastor.

This is the problem with such argument; I can find where God and his glory are described with the actual original language words for eternal (no time limit). I cannot find such for hell or the lake of fire.

See, if I say God will reign in the age of Messiah over the nations, I'm not limiting him from reigning beyond that. Likewise, if I say that the Second Death will be torment for sinners for an age or ages, that does not mean I'm saying it will be eternal (no end at all).

In order to establish a doctrine, we need at least 2 or 3 witnesses that clearly teach the doctrine, in Scripture, with proper (literal) interpretation of the original language. Any thing else is just a man's opinion, even if they call it doctrine.

Please show me even 1 witness in Scripture where either hell or the second death are eternal (not age-long or ages long).

I'm not attached to any belief on this issue, especially because it is a non-essential issue to Christian faith. My belief in what hell is like has nothing to do with whether I trust in Christ or not.

In my opinion, it should be a red flag to believers that people get so upset over this issue, and defend it so passionately, with such vague passages that don't actually call it eternal torment as many doctrinal statements say.

There is also the issue of there being no record of any of the early Christians teaching that Scripture says hell is eternal. The idea of eternal torture does not surface in writings until generations after the original Apostles, and when it does surface, it surfaces through x-pagan gentile men converted to Christianity, who believed such before they were Christians, having been taught such from childhood among the pagans.

 

[DavidPresently]

Arbiter01 said: Scripture speaks for itself in that section, there is no further need to see if Paul was incorrect somehow. Actually, the word "not" in that section is easily translated "never" because it is absolutely negative.

Let me say one more time; I am not disputing such. I have not stated that unbelievers will inherit the Kingdom. You are arguing a completely different subject than what I brought up.

However, I understand why you think they are connected. You have not learned from an ancient Hebrew understanding. You are familiar, like most Christians, only with the gentile x-pagan understanding/mindset on this subject.

We can discuss that issue another time. For now, stick to the subject, which is eternal torture. Prove from Scripture that such exists. For a doctrine, you need 2 or 3 witnesses that teach such as the literal meaning from the original language.

 

[ARBITER01]

Arbiter01 said: Scripture speaks for itself in that section, there is no further need to see if Paul was incorrect somehow. Actually, the word "not" in that section is easily translated "never" because it is absolutely negative.

Let me say one more time; I am not disputing such. I have not stated that unbelievers will inherit the Kingdom. You are arguing a completely different subject than what I brought up.

However, I understand why you think they are connected. You have not learned from an ancient Hebrew understanding. You are familiar, like most Christians, only with the gentile x-pagan understanding/mindset on this subject.

We can discuss that issue another time. For now, stick to the subject, which is eternal torture. Prove from Scripture that such exists. For a doctrine, you need 2 or 3 witnesses that teach such as the literal meaning from the original language.

Paul says the same thing over in Galatians,..

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they which practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The same absolute negative construction here as in Corinthians. In other words, they shall never be an heir to the kingdom of GOD. If they are never going to inherit the kingdom of GOD, then they will never be in Christ no matter what. Paul was absolutely clear on it.

And no, no one needs to have 2 or 3 witnesses of scripture to prove a doctrine as there is no requirement in scripture for it, but that is twice that Paul mentions the same thing.

 

[DavidPresently]

Paul says the same thing over in Galatians,..

The same absolute negative construction here as in Corinthians. In other words, they shall never be an heir to the kingdom of GOD. If they are never going to inherit the kingdom of GOD, then they will never be in Christ no matter what. Paul was absolutely clear on it.

And no, no one needs to have 2 or 3 witnesses of scripture to prove a doctrine as there is no requirement in scripture for it, but that is twice that Paul mentions the same thing.

I'll repeat a third time, since you missed it the first two times; I have not said they will inherit the Kingdom. We can discuss the subject of Kingdom inheritance and what that means another time.

The topic here is whether hell is equal to eternal (never ends) torture or something else. I don't at this time want to get into many other options - I simply want you to prove from Scripture, considering the original language, that hell equals eternal torture chamber.

Please don't make me repeat this again and ask you a fourth time to stick to this topic, and not get over into the topic of Kingdom inheritance.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'll repeat a third time, since you missed it the first two times; I have not said they will inherit the Kingdom. We can discuss the subject of Kingdom inheritance and what that means another time.

The topic here is whether hell is equal to eternal (never ends) torture or something else. I don't at this time want to get into many other options - I simply want you to prove from Scripture, considering the original language, that hell equals eternal torture chamber.

Please don't make me repeat this again and ask you a fourth time to stick to this topic, and not get over into the topic of Kingdom inheritance.

Well I'm sorry my friend, but I'm not changing my subject we originally discussed in another thread just because you quoted me here out of that one into your topic, and then demand that I do.

 

[DavidPresently]

Well I'm sorry my friend, but I'm not changing my subject we originally discussed in another thread just because you quoted me here out of that one into your topic, and then demand that I do.

That is not what is going on. I brought up the issue of believing that hell is not an eternal place of torment. I briefly explained why. You then chose to respond with the argument that unbelievers will never inherit the kingdom. You did so, presumably, to show that hell must be eternal, otherwise those released from hell would inherit the kingdom.

I understand where you are coming from with that, though I disagree with that reasoning. For now, I just want this thread to focus on whether hell is eternal torture or not. If you don't want to discuss that directly, don't stay involved with this thread. Unsubscribe.

I'll be happy to discuss what kingdom inheritance is in another thread. Start it up with the title, "What is Kingdom Inheritance" and post first with your understanding of such, and I'll reply.

In this thread, if you believe in eternal torment in hell for unbelievers, I'm looking for Scripture proof for such. Where in Scripture is hell eternal torment for the unbeliever? Please account for the original language and don't merely rely on translations, which can translate based on traditional mindsets, instead of sticking to the literal original meaning.

Thanks!

 

[ARBITER01]

That is not what is going on. I brought up the issue of believing that hell is not an eternal place of torment. I briefly explained why. You then chose to respond with the argument that unbelievers will never inherit the kingdom. You did so, presumably, to show that hell must be eternal, otherwise those released from hell would inherit the kingdom.

I understand where you are coming from with that, though I disagree with that reasoning. For now, I just want this thread to focus on whether hell is eternal torture or not. If you don't want to discuss that directly, don't stay involved with this thread. Unsubscribe.

I'll be happy to discuss what kingdom inheritance is in another thread. Start it up with the title, "What is Kingdom Inheritance" and post first with your understanding of such, and I'll reply.

In this thread, if you believe in eternal torment in hell for unbelievers, I'm looking for Scripture proof for such. Where in Scripture is hell eternal torment for the unbeliever? Please account for the original language and don't merely rely on translations, which can translate based on traditional mindsets, instead of sticking to the literal original meaning.

Thanks!

I'm not interested in whatever rabbit trail you are wishing to discuss outside of the subject I commented on from the other thread, so next time, think a little bit before you quote people into your thread to discuss your personal subjects and issues.

 

[DavidPresently]

I'm not interested in whatever rabbit trail you are wishing to discuss outside of the subject I commented on from the other thread, so next time, think a little bit before you quote people into your thread to discuss your personal subjects and issues.

Then you should not have responded to me starting this subject in the other thread first. You responded to me in the other thread. I quoted that response to bring here so you could continue to respond to this subject, without getting that thread hijacked off topic, against the CF rules.

Like I said, if you don't want to talk about hell, whether it is eternal torture or not, then don't respond anymore in this thread. It is that simple. No one is trying to force you to talk about this.

But, if you are going to keep responding here, hit the topic, which is hell, not the Kingdom.

 

[ARBITER01]

Then you should not have responded to me starting this subject in the other thread first. You responded to me in the other thread. I quoted that response to bring here so you could continue to respond to this subject, without getting that thread hijacked off topic, against the CF rules.

Like I said, if you don't want to talk about hell, whether it is eternal torture or not, then don't respond anymore in this thread. It is that simple. No one is trying to force you to talk about this.

But, if you are going to keep responding here, hit the topic, which is hell, not the Kingdom.

I didn't respond to you,.... I responded to Floating Axe and her response to you, you took issue with that and then took it upon yourself to take that response of mine to her and answer it yourself.

Like I said, maybe next time you will be more observant about what you are doing.

 

[DavidPresently]

Be blessed and stop responding here if you don't want to talk about this subject.

 

[Tobias]

You have some really good points here, David!

What about the verses where Jesus mentioned "hell", saying it's a place where "The worm dieth not, neither is the fire ever quenched." Or the parable where the guy is handed over to the torturers until he pays his entire debt to the king, which is an impossible amount of money?

I guess in neither case does it mention that the person is doomed to stay there for eternity. The fire may never be quenched, but that doesn't mean the person never is refined and pulled out. Also, if an unrefined person (one still practicing sin) cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven", then there is no reason to think that this person needs to endure the torture any longer than what it takes to stop practicing sin.

Does the Bible clearly state anywhere, that there are only two options for when we die, either eternal glory or eternal torment? Or is that another man-made doctrine, one created by the politicians back when Christianity was used as a method to control the masses?

And, it that is the case (that it's either heaven or hell), who's to say this is the case right now before the final Judgment? Can that be proven from scripture, or do we just assume that someone is there sorting out souls the moment we die?

 

[DavidPresently]

You have some really good points here, David!

What about the verses where Jesus mentioned "hell", saying it's a place where "The worm dieth not, neither is the fire ever quenched." Or the parable where the guy is handed over to the torturers until he pays his entire debt to the king, which is an impossible amount of money?

I guess in neither case does it mention that the person is doomed to stay there for eternity. The fire may never be quenched, but that doesn't mean the person never is refined and pulled out. Also, if an unrefined person (one still practicing sin) cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven", then there is no reason to think that this person needs to endure the torture any longer than what it takes to stop practicing sin.

Does the Bible clearly state anywhere, that there are only two options for when we die, either eternal glory or eternal torment? Or is that another man-made doctrine, one created by the politicians back when Christianity was used as a method to control the masses?

And, it that is the case (that it's either heaven or hell), who's to say this is the case right now before the final Judgment? Can that be proven from scripture, or do we just assume that someone is there sorting out souls the moment we die?

The passage stating "the worm dies not" and the flame is not quenched is not speaking of something eternal. The context is speaking of a literal garbage dump the Jews used for their trash. In generations of idol worshipers, that same valley was used to sacrifice children by fire to Molech. This dump had a perpetual fire, as in it never went out, at that time. It burned day and night from the trash acting as fuel the Jews continued dumping there on it.

However, if you go there today, you'll find the fire is out. It is no longer a site used to get rid of refuse. When Jesus used it as an illustration, he was not making a doctrinal statement that he and his Father would one day torture souls forever without end by burning them alive, but in a manner that could never totally destroy them.

Furthermore, in Scripture, the consuming fire of God is figurative. It is a metaphorical way of describing something spiritual. The fire exists now. We are in the fire of the first death right now. If Christians would really stop to think about this subject for themselves, they'd realize this.

For example, we are to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. The fire is to refine us, burning up the chaff and getting rid of the dross. People can go through this voluntarily right now, and it causes growth in Christ, to become more like him. It is not torture. It can be uncomfortable and even painful to the carnal nature of the flesh, but it is not physical fire burning our flesh, and causing that kind of pain.

The fact that people believe their God will burn people alive in a manner that the flesh can burn in a physical fire, is horrific. Maybe this kind of sick thinking is how the Catholics leaders could justify burning people at the stake, whether they confessed faith in Christ or not, just because they did not agree with all Catholic doctrine and practice. Crowds of Catholics would actually stand around and cheer while people were burnt alive, until they died. Even worldly people whose consciences have not yet been so seared by false religious teaching know it is evil and wrong to torture people, and that punishment should be to correct people, or remove them from society so they don't harm others, not to torture them.

Concerning the parable of the servant being handed over until he pays the last penny of his debt, because he showed no mercy to others, such is never mentioned in Scripture as impossible to repay or eternal (no end, never ever). The idea that sin debt cannot be quantified is unscriptural and a modern Gentile Christian invention. When Jesus said, "that he could never repay," it is speaking of through normal effort in a normal life time.

For example, if I owed someone a billion dollars, based on the money I can make right now, even working 100 hours a week and getting little sleep, I could not pay back such a debt in this life time. So, it could be said, "He can never pay that back."

The real point of that parable is not how much time it will take for someone to pay back their debt, but rather that God will show mercy to those who show mercy to others. It is not teaching doctrine about how much someone is judged according to his evil works. We do know that God's sense of justice includes different levels of punishment for different offenses, as we see clearly in the Law. Christians coming up with a doctrine that says any and all sin is judged as such a great offense, even the first lie a toddler tells, that they will go to eternal torture unless they make Jesus Savior in this life time, is neither found in Scripture, and especially not in the Hebrew belief system and Law inspired by God. Remember, the Hebrews, not the gentiles, were given the inspiration of God's true ways and doctrine. We do well to look back to their understanding on these subjects.

The point of the parable goes along with the "judge not lest ye be judged," saying Jesus taught. The servant was given mercy by his Master, but then he went and was harsh with a fellow servant over a smaller debt that servant owed him. He had the fellow servant put in jail over it. When the Master found out, he revoked his mercy for the first servant and had him thrown in jail.

In other words, those who want other sinners to be thrown in jail and pay the full measure of their sentence for their crimes, will also be punished/chastised by God until their sentence is over. They failed to perceive and receive God's mercy, first for themselves, and then for others, as priests interceding for others. They fall into the trap of joining with the Accuser of the brethren and wanting to condemn others. They forget the mercy God showed them, and do not feel that others who owe them deserve the same level of mercy. They will be in for a rude awakening one day at judgment time, when they do not inherit the Kingdom, but instead get thrown in jail and get the stripes of punishment.

Furthermore, that parable includes the servant begging his Master's mercy when the Master came to get him over the debt. That is judgment time. According to the parable, the idea that when one physically dies, before the judgment of the Master, that their fate is forever sealed, is not true. According to the parable, the servant was able to ask for mercy at that time, when he was being judged by the Master for it. The issue, however, was that he turned around and accused his fellow servant in order to have him thrown in prison. That angered the Master.

Instead of getting the actual point of the parable, we have a classic case of Christians interpreting Scripture based on preconceived notions and bias. People are superimposing their belief onto the text, when it comes to this subject of hell. They'd be better off to go back and find out what Hebrews back then thought of hell and punishment, so they could better understand what Jesus and others were saying about it.

Back to the worm dies not passage. Look carefully at the context. Is it about salvation or works? We all agree as Christians that salvation is by grace alone, not of works, lest any man should boast. Jesus did the work for salvation, his Blood shed for the sins of the world (all inclusive, by the way - his blood was not just shed for a few).

NO, the passage is talking about judgment of works, for everyone, believer and unbeliever. This all-inclusive statement is made about the fire of punishment/refinement Jesus is teaching about:

Mar 9:49 MKJV For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

It says every one, not "those who don't believe in me." Again, this passage is interpreted with Christianese glasses on by most. Take the Christianese glasses off, don't filter it through a Greco-Roman gentile pagan mindset, but read it for what it actually states, and learn from the Hebrew mindset that God gave them from Abraham onward.

 

[DavidPresently]

One of the big mysteries to me on this subject is how Christians actually believe that it does Christ a disservice to believe what I and many others do, that hell is not eternal, but finite, having beginning and end. Only God is eternal without beginning and end, in Scripture. The truth that the Blood was shed for all of mankind, which Scripture clearly states, is not doing Christ a disservice or putting down his work. In fact, it is further exalting his work on the cross, as more powerful than traditional Christian belief has given him credit for.

I believe the blood is more powerful than most modern Christians think. I believe the work of the cross is more powerful than most modern Christians think. I believe God is greater than the devil, but such a long shot, that there is no way the Almighty is going to allow the devil to deceive the vast majority of people into an eternal torture chamber where they can never learn nor repent from their sin/unbelief.

I believe that God, not the devil, will end up with all of his souls he created to worship and fellowship with him.

However, only the remnant, the overcomers of this first age, will rule and reign with Christ over the nations. Only they will inherit the Kingdom, not even just those who believe now. Many believe now, but are not overcoming sin, the devil, and the world. Most Christians are lukewarm and weak in faith. They are not doing exploits and super-conquerors. They are not doing the works of Jesus, nor greater works. They are not qualifying for those who will overcome and rule with Christ over the nations of the next age.

If they think they will inherit the Kingdom by grace, they are mistaken about what inheriting the Kingdom means. They will be in the Kingdom, as those being ruled, not as the heirs who rule with Christ. Being in the Kingdom and inheriting the Kingdom are two separate things. To understand that, one needs to understand the ancient Hebrew way concerning inheritance. The firstborn (firstfruit(s)) inherited their father's estate, given charge over it. The other children were not heirs, though they were free to live in the land and partake in their father's house. Partaking of the house, and being given charge over the house (authority) are two totally different concepts concerning the house.

I repeat, not all "believers" are going to be heirs ruling and reigning with Christ. Only those who overcome now will be, having proven their ability to reign with Christ, even to the judging of angels/spirits. Some believers already judge the work of spirits and command them with their authority in Christ. For example, some believers exercise their faith to cast devils out of the lives of other people, so the people are set free. When they do this, they are practicing the executing of judgment on spirits, as Christ has given them the authority to do so. When the devil's oppression is cast out of the person, the believer has just exercised authority and overcame the devil's works/kingdom. These are the type of believers who do this now, who will reign with Christ. This age is boot camp for the overcomers.