What is Gods program for Israel?

[eph3Nine]

http://www.graceambassadors.com/qa/

What is the ‘prophetic program’, “Israel’s program”, ‘God’s plan for the earth’?

The Bible describes a two-fold plan and purpose that God has for the universe. The difference between these dual programs inside God’s purpose resides in the information that was ‘spoken by the mouth of the prophets since the world began’ and that which was ‘kept secret since the world began’ (Acts 3:21, Romans 16:25). We mark the difference between the two programs by calling one the subject of prophecy while the other is the subject of the mystery revealed to Paul (Eph 3:1-5).

We can further distinguish these programs by their sphere of dominion. The prophetic program is promised a future dominion on earth, while the program which was kept a mystery is promised a dominion in heavenly places. These two programs describe what will fulfill God’s single purpose for eternity – that all things would be in Christ (Eph 1:10).

God began to reveal his plan for the earth almost immediately to Adam, Abraham, and eventually to the nation Israel. However, he kept the information of his heavenly program a secret from the foundation of the world (Eph 3:9).

The aspects of God’s program for the earth can be summed up with the following characteristics:

1. Israel is created as God’s chosen people. God created the nation Israel to have a privileged status before Him as a peculiar people (Gen 12:2, Exo 19:5, Rom 3:1-2).
2. His chosen nation is promised a kingdom on earth. God promised a specific piece of land that would mark where He would set up his kingdom on earth (Gen 13:15, Deut 34:4, Psalm 37:22, Matt 5:5, Isaiah 2:2-4).
3. The kingdom will rule the world with the Messiah as King. A Messiah was promised to Israel that would lead the nation into world dominion and power (Daniel 2:44-45, Isaiah 9:6-7, Jeremiah 23:5).
4. Israel will be the channel of blessing to the Gentile nations. Through their worldwide influence, and access to God, Israel would be the channel of God’s blessing to Gentile nations (Gen 12:3, 22:18, Zech 8:20-23, Isa 60:3, Matt 5:16) .
5. Righteousness comes through God’s covenants. God gave the Old Covenant as a token that Israel would be a nation that followed after God. The New Covenant would replace the old as the method of attaining righteousness and entrance into the kingdom (Deut 6:25, Eze 36:24-27, Matt 5:20, John 14:21, 1 John 3:7-10).
6. Israel will live through tribulation before entering the kingdom. With the divine protection of God, Israel would be able to live through the time of His wrath poured out on earth. They would be refined as silver and come out prepared to enter the kingdom on Earth (Dan 9:24, Zech 13:9, Mark 13:13, 1 Peter 4:17).

These aspects stand in stark contrast to the aspects of God’s mystery program, or God’s program for heavenly places (see What is the Mystery). Today we who are saved are not participants of God’s program for the earth, but rather we are ambassadors of God’s heavenly purpose residing on earth to do his will (2 Cor 5:20, Eph 2:6).

Understanding the difference between the Prophecy and the Mystery in the Bible is a key to understanding what God’s will is for us today. This basic truth can help us better understand our Bibles and the purpose of our Lord and Savior.

 

[nwmsugrad]

Righteousness comes through God’s covenants. God gave the Old Covenant as a token that Israel would be a nation that followed after God. The New Covenant would replace the old as the method of attaining righteousness and entrance into the kingdom (Deut 6:25, Eze 36:24-27, Matt 5:20, John 14:21, 1 John 3:7-10).

Questions:

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


Can you explain what this passage means to the audience it was written to?


Galatians 5:16-21 (NKJV)
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Also see Romans 13:12-14)


In the context of this passage who is capable of engaging in the works of the flesh, believers saved by grace, unbelievers or both believers and unbelievers?


Hebrews 7:18-22 (NASB95)
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, “The Lord has sworn And will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever’ ”);
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.


Why is the old covenant called weak and useless in this passage?


How many new covenants are there? Doest Paul teach that we as Gentiles are also under a new covenant? Is this the same covenant discussed in Hebrews 7:22 or an entirely different covenant?


2 Corinthians 3:6 (NASB95)
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


How is the new covenant in 2 Cor 3 different than the new covenant in Hebrews 7; is it different?

1 Corinthians 11:24-26 (NASB95)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

Luke 22:20 (NASB95)
20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.



Whatever the new covenant is in I Cor 11:25 aren’t we as gentile believers expected to observe it in light of I Cor 11:26-29, 34?


How is the remembrance practiced by the Corinthian believers of Christ’s death and the new covenant he instituted different than the commandment he gave his disciples in Luke 22:19 “do this in remembrance of me”

 

[eph3Nine]

I would like the focus to be on the topic of the thread.

We arent under any covenant today, but in the dispensation of the GRACE of God. The OLD covenent will be made NEW with the same group of persons it originated with, THE NATION ISRAEL. See Jer 31;31.

If you would like to start a new thread with questions you would like answered about a certain topic...please feel free to do so.

I would suggest for you to print out this thread and the one on the program for we the Body of Christ and COMPARE for yourself. One has to be aware that we arent IN Israels program but in a NEW one that was kept SECRET and HID IN GOD, BEFORE we go onto answering all kinds of questions. The foundation must be there in order to understand what we are looking at.

You must FIRST acknowledge that we are the BODY of Christ, NOT the Kingdom Church comprised of Jews. We are NOT an extension of Judaism, as is commonly taught in seminarys and Bible Colleges. We are NOT Gods covenant people....those people are part of Gods prophetic program....we are part of the MYSTERY.

 

[GLJCA]

I dont know who you quoted, but it wasnt me. Sounds like someone who believes covenant theology and I clearly DONT!

I would like the focus to be on the topic of the thread.

We arent under any covenant today, but in the dispensation of the GRACE of God. The OLD covenent will be made NEW with the same group of persons it originated with, THE NATION ISRAEL. See Jer 31;31.

If you would like to start a new thread with questions you would like answered about a certain topic...please feel free to do so.

I would suggest for you to print out this thread and the one on the program for we the Body of Christ and COMPARE for yourself. One has to be aware that we arent IN Israels program but in a NEW one that was kept SECRET and HID IN GOD, BEFORE we go onto answering all kinds of questions. The foundation must be there in order to understand what we are looking at.

You must FIRST acknowledge that we are the BODY of Christ, NOT the Kingdom Church comprised of Jews. We are NOT an extension of Judaism, as is commonly taught in seminarys and Bible Colleges. We are NOT Gods covenant people....those people are part of Gods prophetic program....we are part of the MYSTERY.

I will focus on the issue at hand EPH3.

1. The bible has never said that God has a two fold program or plan for the universe. That is a Acts 2 figment of imagination. What, do you think that if you keep repeating it enough that people will start believing it?

2. The mystery isn't a program it is just that the Gentiles are now fellowheirs in the Covenant.

The mystery has always been and as the scripture plainly says is the fact that the Gentiles have now become fellowheirs together with the OT saints.
Eph 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Can't get much plainer than that. Of course I don't expect that the Word of God will change your mind.

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

I misunderstood....and taken out of context it sounded as though you were advocating covenant theology....sorry...Im still muddle headed from this cold and didnt catch it first time thru.

 

[nwmsugrad]

I dont know who you quoted, but it wasnt me. Sounds like someone who believes covenant theology and I clearly DONT!

Sounds like it to me to, neither do I by the way.

This thread isnt about righteousness, but I must answer this absurd and totally FALSE claim by a whoever will embarrass himself enuff to admit he wrote it.

I was quoting you at least I thought I was: the statement came from your introductory post.

Eph3Nine wrote:

What is the ‘prophetic program’, “Israel’s program”, ‘God’s plan for the earth’?

The Bible describes a two-fold plan and purpose that God has for the universe. The difference between these dual programs inside God’s purpose resides in the information that was ‘spoken by the mouth of the prophets since the world began’ and that which was ‘kept secret since the world began’ (Acts 3:21, Romans 16:25). We mark the difference between the two programs by calling one the subject of prophecy while the other is the subject of the mystery revealed to Paul (Eph 3:1-5).

We can further distinguish these programs by their sphere of dominion. The prophetic program is promised a future dominion on earth, while the program which was kept a mystery is promised a dominion in heavenly places. These two programs describe what will fulfill God’s single purpose for eternity – that all things would be in Christ (Eph 1:10).

God began to reveal his plan for the earth almost immediately to Adam, Abraham, and eventually to the nation Israel. However, he kept the information of his heavenly program a secret from the foundation of the world (Eph 3:9).

The aspects of God’s program for the earth can be summed up with the following characteristics:
1. Israel is created as God’s chosen people. God created the nation Israel to have a privileged status before Him as a peculiar people (Gen 12:2, Exo 19:5, Rom 3:1-2).
2. His chosen nation is promised a kingdom on earth. God promised a specific piece of land that would mark where He would set up his kingdom on earth (Gen 13:15, Deut 34:4, Psalm 37:22, Matt 5:5, Isaiah 2:2-4).
3. The kingdom will rule the world with the Messiah as King. A Messiah was promised to Israel that would lead the nation into world dominion and power (Daniel 2:44-45, Isaiah 9:6-7, Jeremiah 23:5).
4. Israel will be the channel of blessing to the Gentile nations. Through their worldwide influence, and access to God, Israel would be the channel of God’s blessing to Gentile nations (Gen 12:3, 22:18, Zech 8:20-23, Isa 60:3, Matt 5:16) .
5. Righteousness comes through God’s covenants. God gave the Old Covenant as a token that Israel would be a nation that followed after God. The New Covenant would replace the old as the method of attaining righteousness and entrance into the kingdom (Deut 6:25, Eze 36:24-27, Matt 5:20, John 14:21, 1 John 3:7-10).
6. Israel will live through tribulation before entering the kingdom. With the divine protection of God, Israel would be able to live through the time of His wrath poured out on earth. They would be refined as silver and come out prepared to enter the kingdom on Earth (Dan 9:24, Zech 13:9, Mark 13:13, 1 Peter 4:17).
These aspects stand in stark contrast to the aspects of God’s mystery program, or God’s program for heavenly places (see What is the Mystery). Today we who are saved are not participants of God’s program for the earth, but rather we are ambassadors of God’s heavenly purpose residing on earth to do his will (2 Cor 5:20, Eph 2:6).

Understanding the difference between the Prophecy and the Mystery in the Bible is a key to understanding what God’s will is for us today. This basic truth can help us better understand our Bibles and the purpose of our Lord and Savior.

 

[nwmsugrad]

Righteousness does NOT come thru a covenant. This shows a complete misunderstanding on the part of the writer as to Gods purpose for putting Israel under the LAW program. It shows a lack of STUDY. God wanted to deal with Israel in mercy and grace, but she wanted the LAW. She actually thot she could DO all the things God commanded!!! Talk about ARROGANT AND STUPID!! God showed Israel time and time again that she could NOT attain to His righteous standard by ANY adherance to the law...and she still said: "whatever you tell us to do, we WILL do it! HA....She went on to show that she couldnt do it. The program she signed up for in Leviticus 26 gave to Israel blessings for when she did obey, and cursings for when she didnt. ALL but ONE of the five courses of curses Israel EARNED under this program she signed up for have come to pass. God INTERUPTED Israels program before the last course of curses FELL, and put into place the MYSTERY program which was a SECRET, Hid in God.

NO WHERE in scripture are we or anyone else told that righteousness comes to us thru ANYTHING but IMPUTATION. The law didnt bring righteousness, and neither did the covenants. That is just flat out a blatantly IGNORANT and incorrect and unlearned statement.

By the way I concur with your response. Very well said! I sheepishly point out that you are responding to something you posted, I pointed it out because I am just as opposed to the statement made in your post as you are

 

[eph3Nine]

By the way I concur with your response. Very well said I sheepishly point out that you are responding to something you posted I pointed it out because I am just as opposed to the statement made in your post as you are

LOL LOL...I know I know....and one of my buttons is there is no righteousness apart from what God imputes to us...however...in the context...for Israel, this was a token...if they tried they were blessed , if they didnt they were cursed.

Anyway, righteousness is a gift and imputed for us in this dispensation. We were talkin about Israel. What is your take on how they maintained a standing with Him? Do you agree that they signed up for a law contract?

Goes to find kleenex and blow nose.....OOOOoooooooooooI hate bein sick.

thanks for pointing that out tho...before I made it even worse....LOL LOL Me doooooofus today, big time!

 

[nwmsugrad]

Anyway, righteousness is a gift and imputed for us in this dispensation. We were talkin about Israel. What is your take on how they maintained a standing with Him? Do you agree that they signed up for a law contract?

Yes and Christ reminds them of this obligation in the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:19 (NASB95)
19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice that if the Israelite under this obligation ignores it and violates all of Gods command they can still make it into the kingdom but their will be eternal consequences “they shall be called least”; in other words just like unfaithful church-age believers they will loose out on rewards. The text does not say if you violate my law you go to hell since the next verse sets up the requirements for entrance into heaven.

Matthew 5:20 (NASB95)
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


I think what Christ is pointing out that noone can make it to heaven by good works. He picks that scribes and the Pharisees as examples because they appeared to be very righteous to everyone observing them. It would be like saying today unless your more righteous than Mother Teresa your not making it. The natural response would be if Mother Teresa was not good enough to make it them who could possibly be good enough. What Christ is saying is that perfection is required. I know I am going to heaven when I die because I have Christ’s perfection imputed to my account. So totally apart from my own works and only because of Christ perfection my righteousness has exceeded the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and meets Gods perfect requirement (Romans 5:19).

Matthew 5:17 (NASB95)
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

When Christ said these words the Jews were still under their obligation to keep the Law, The Law was set aside and replaced with a better covenant when it was fulfilled by Christ as he died on the cross and said “it is finished”. At that point in time the law was accomplished and the Jews were set free from their obligation.

 

[GLJCA]

Yes and Christ reminds them of this obligation in the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:19 (NASB95)
19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice that if the Israelite under this obligation ignores it and violates all of Gods command they can still make it into the kingdom but their will be eternal consequences “they shall be called least”; in other words just like unfaithful church-age believers they will loose out on rewards. The text does not say if you violate my law you go to hell since the next verse sets up the requirements for entrance into heaven.

Matthew 5:20 (NASB95)
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


I think what Christ is pointing out that noone can make it to heaven by good works. He picks that scribes and the Pharisees as examples because they appeared to be very righteous to everyone observing them. It would be like saying today unless your more righteous than Mother Teresa your not making it. The natural response would be if Mother Teresa was not good enough to make it them who could possibly be good enough. What Christ is saying is that perfection is required. I know I am going to heaven when I die because I have Christ’s perfection imputed to my account. So totally apart from my own works and only because of Christ perfection my righteousness has exceeded the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and meets Gods perfect requirement (Romans 5:19).

Matthew 5:17 (NASB95)
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

When Christ said these words the Jews were still under their obligation to keep the Law, The Law was set aside and replaced with a better covenant when it was fulfilled by Christ as he died on the cross and said “it is finished”. At that point in time the law was accomplished and the Jews were set free from their obligation.

It is true that no one can get to heaven through good works. It has always been that way. Hebrews 11 shows that through faith the OT saints obtained God's favor not through good works. Although their works did perfect their faith.

Are you, as a Christian, not obligated to keep the law? If you commit adultery is that not transgression of the Law? In fact does not John tells us that sin is the transgression of the law in 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.?

Do you not have to confess the sin or transgression of the law that you commit? Why are we commanded to confess our sin?

GLJCA

 

[nwmsugrad]

Are you, as a Christian, not obligated to keep the law? If you commit adultery is that not transgression of the Law? In fact does not John tells us that sin is the transgression of the law in 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.?

Do you not have to confess the sin or transgression of the law that you commit? Why are we commanded to confess our sin?

As a christian I am under no obligation to the "Law" of Moses. as believers we are commanded to obey the "law" of Christ mentioned in Galations 6:2. Eph3Nine will most likely disagree with me but I think we as believers are also commanded to obey the law of liberty (which refers to the same law described in Gal 6:2) mentioned in James 1:25. When Paul attempted to subject himself to the Law as a believer it resulted in his ruin (see Romans 7).

Last Saturday I totally ignored the 4th commandment and treated my Saturday as just another day of the week. Did I sin? was I under an obligation to rest on the sabbath?

Whenever I sin say I take the Lords name in vain (a sin) I am supposed to confess my sin (I John 1:9) I I fail to do so I will be out of fellowship with my Father and can will be subject to His discipline.

 

[eph3Nine]

Yes and Christ reminds them of this obligation in the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:19 (NASB95)
19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice that if the Israelite under this obligation ignores it and violates all of Gods command they can still make it into the kingdom but their will be eternal consequences “they shall be called least”; in other words just like unfaithful church-age believers they will loose out on rewards. The text does not say if you violate my law you go to hell since the next verse sets up the requirements for entrance into heaven.

The Kingdom of heaven here is speaking of the Kingdom of heaven ON EARTH. The placement in the scriptures tells us this is still the prophetic, earthly program which belongs to the nation Israel, right?

Matthew 5:20 (NASB95)
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

Again, this is referring to the Kingdom of heaven ON EARTH, which is Gods program with the Jewish Nation. They arent promised heavenly rewards, but earthly thrones, and earthly real estate.

I think what Christ is pointing out that noone can make it to heaven by good works. He picks that scribes and the Pharisees as examples because they appeared to be very righteous to everyone observing them. It would be like saying today unless your more righteous than Mother Teresa your not making it. The natural response would be if Mother Teresa was not good enough to make it them who could possibly be good enough. What Christ is saying is that perfection is required. I know I am going to heaven when I die because I have Christ’s perfection imputed to my account. So totally apart from my own works and only because of Christ perfection my righteousness has exceeded the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and meets Gods perfect requirement (Romans 5:19).

Since Israel is never promised heaven, but a KINGDOM on the earth...its kinda scrambled when we try and mix these programs up. Your reasoning is sound in that our righteousness is imputed and is actually HIS righteousness...He met the standard and thats what gives ME access...by being IN the righteous ONE...yep, with that I agree wholeheartedly. However, keep in mind, that this information wasnt available UNTIL the mystery truths were revealed to Paul. BEFORE Paul, it was faith demonstrated by works for the Jew, and the law of Moses was their rule of life. Its NOT ours.

Is that how you see it?

Matthew 5:17 (NASB95)
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

When Christ said these words the Jews were still under their obligation to keep the Law, The Law was set aside and replaced with a better covenant when it was fulfilled by Christ as he died on the cross and said “it is finished”. At that point in time the law was accomplished and the Jews were set free from their obligation.

The Jew of AGES to COME is still not set free from their obligation to TRY and keep the law...this is the agreement I was talking about when I got all confused...LOL. This has yet to be fulfilled in their agreement with God found in Leviticus 26...one more week of a course of curses is due them...they earned it thru the law contract they entered into with Him. (Blessings if they obeyed/curses if they didnt) Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for ANYONE who will trust that His work on the Cross is sufficient, for Jew and gentile alike in this the dispensation of GRACE. But at that time, Israel KNEW she still had ONE course of curses left to go thru when God INTERRUPTED their program, Put it ON HOLD...and ushered in His MYSTERY revelation that was given to Paul. We are still IN that parenthetical dispensation today.

Have you heard of the dispensation of the Grace of God?

 

[eph3Nine]

As a christian I am under no obligation to the "Law" of Moses. as believers we are commanded to obey the "law" of Christ mentioned in Galations 6:2. Eph3Nine will most likely disagree with me but I think we as believers are also commanded to obey the law of liberty (which refers to the same law described in Gal 6:2) mentioned in James 1:25. When Paul attempted to subject himself to the Law as a believer it resulted in his ruin (see Romans 7).

Last Saturday I totally ignored the 4th commandment and treated my Saturday as just another day of the week. Did I sin? was I under an obligation to rest on the sabbath?

Whenever I sin say I take the Lords name in vain (a sin) I am supposed to confess my sin (I John 1:9) I I fail to do so I will be out of fellowship with my Father and can will be subject to His discipline.

You are correct.....we were NEVER under the law of Moses, as that was given to the Nation Israel, and not to us.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

As for the last part of your post....all my sin was future when Jesus died for it. My confessing it is NOT what forgives me of it, but what HE did two thousand years ago by shedding His blood. John is a minister to the circumcision...that means that his words are to the Jews in AGES TO COME, and have no bearing on us, the Body of Christ. We know that by rightly dividing Gods Word and seeing to whom the letters are addressed.

The 1 John 1:9 fiasco is church tradition teaching and NOT at all biblical! The wages of sin is DEATH>>>>>>not broken fellowship! Either Jesus paid for all sin and will never again deal with me on the basis of that sin ever again, or I really dont believe in the sufficiency of what He did on that CROSS and am NOT believing the gospel that saves today.

NOTHING can separate us today from God....scripture tells us this. ESPECIALLY NOT SIN! He died to make SURE OF THAT ONE FACT! Again, His performance on Calvary two thousand years ago is what forgave me of ALL my sin, past , present and FUTURE. ALL my sins were future when He died for them. Confessing sins was something ISRAEL is told to do....WE are already forgiven without having to confess even ONE of em. UP front forgiveness is what we have.

 

[nwmsugrad]

The Kingdom of heaven here is speaking of the Kingdom of heaven ON EARTH. The placement in the scriptures tells us this is still the prophetic, earthly program which belongs to the nation Israel, right?

I would understand the kingdom of heaven in this context as referring to the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the throne of David.

Again, this is referring to the Kingdom of heaven ON EARTH, which is Gods program with the Jewish Nation. They aren’t promised heavenly rewards, but earthly thrones, and earthly real estate.

I was making a distinction between kingdom entrance and ones status within that kingdom. The only Jews that will be in the earthly kingdom are those who have had Christ’s righteousness imputed to their account. These believing Jews will be in two categories faithful believers who will be rewarded and unfaithful believers who will be least in the kingdom.

Since Israel is never promised heaven, but a KINGDOM on the earth...its kinda scrambled when we try and mix these programs up. Your reasoning is sound in that our righteousness is imputed and is actually HIS righteousness...He met the standard and thats what gives ME access...by being IN the righteous ONE...yep, with that I agree wholeheartedly. However, keep in mind, that this information wasnt available UNTIL the mystery truths were revealed to Paul. BEFORE Paul, it was faith demonstrated by works for the Jew, and the law of Moses was their rule of life. Its NOT ours.

Is that how you see it?

While your correct that in the context of Matthew Christ is preaching the gospel of the kingdom which is not the same thing as the gospel of grace that Paul taught, I would not concur with your entire quote. Israel will spend 1000 years on this earth and eternity after that on the new earth described in Rev 21:1. Church age believers will spend the seven year tribulation period in heaven which is why Paul says his citizenship is in heaven.


Your distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace is correct. What you fail to understand is that Christ taught two gospels: the gospel of the kingdom (which is discussed extensively in Matthew and the other synoptic gospels) and the gospel of grace (which is taught extensively in the gospel of John).

I assume we both agree that the gospel of the kingdom includes works in order to prepare for Christ’s earthly kingdom which has been put on hold until the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” Can you show me from the gospel of John where Christ teaches His gospel of the kingdom? (There are a few accounts where He teaches discipleship which is not the same thing as explaining how to receive eternal life) The purpose of John is to explain the gospel of grace (see John 20:30-31). Can you show me where Christ presents His gospel in John and includes works which would be necessary if he was preaching a gospel of the kingdom in this account. If not why are His gospel presentations incomplete?

If I was not aware of Paul’s writing it would be possible for me to understand the gospel of grace (the same gospel that Christ presented to Saul) by reading the gospel of John.

On a side note can you tell me why it is referred to as the “kingdom of heaven” in Matthew and the “kingdom of God” in Mark and Luke?

 

[nwmsugrad]

The 1 John 1:9 fiasco is church tradition teaching and NOT at all biblical! The wages of sin is DEATH>>>>>>not broken fellowship! Either Jesus paid for all sin and will never again deal with me on the basis of that sin ever again, or I really dont believe in the sufficiency of what He did on that CROSS and am NOT believing the gospel that saves today.

NOTHING can separate us today from God....scripture tells us this. ESPECIALLY NOT SIN! He died to make SURE OF THAT ONE FACT! Again, His performance on Calvary two thousand years ago is what forgave me of ALL my sin, past , present and FUTURE. ALL my sins were future when He died for them. Confessing sins was something ISRAEL is told to do....WE are already forgiven without having to confess even ONE of em. UP front forgiveness is what we have.

I John is misunderstood by most reformed theologians who see the book as a test to determine if one has eternal life (I John 5:13). I John is a test for believers to determine whether they are in fellowship with the Father (I John 1:3-4)


When I referred to I John 1:9, I was not speaking of soteriological forgiveness. Confessing ones sins has no place in salvation which is a free gift apart from any work. We obviously disagree about the audience of I John. When I confess my sins I am forgiven in a fellowship sense. If I refuse to confess known sin I am still God’s child since my salvation has nothing to do with my confession or anything else related to my performance, but my choosing to dwell in the darkness rather than the light strains my relationship with my Father. The consequences of this strained relationship include Fatherly discipline and loss of future rewards at the bema seat but they do not include hell?

Question: assuming your position is correct what happens to the Jew who fails to confess their sin? Do they lose their salvation?


Question: who exactly was I John written to? Was it written to Jewish believers who were alive during John's time or was it written to Jewish believers of some time in the future?

 

[biblebeliever123]

The book of John does not give us the preaching of the cross. It does give us a presentation of the crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection, but nowhere does it say that by believing Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again for your justification you can be saved. (as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 4:25)

You do not find the doctrine of justification in the book of John. The word grace is only used 3 times and this in connection with the deity of Christ with grace as an attribute of God...not the preaching of the dispensation of the gospel of the grace of God which is committed to Paul by revelation from the risen, ascended Lord from glory. Paul the apostle to the gentiles, the one given the revelation of the mystery, the gospel of the grace of God uses the word grace 86 times...more than any other Bible writer.

John was a minister of the 'CIRCUMCISION' as we see in Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. John was NOT commissioned with the revelation of the gospel of the grace of God...we find that commission given to Paul.

The book of John presents Christ as God. It is still a "Jewish" book..the message still going to Israel. Christ is presented as King of Israel, not as Head of the body of Christ (only in Paul do we see Him presented as Head of the church which is His body). He is Messiah (to Israel) in John...not shown as Head of the church which is His body. Again this is distinctive to the Pauline message and ministry, give to Paul by the authority of the risen, ascended, glorified Lord.

Israel was to see Him as THE CHRIST, the Messiah, their King and believe in His name... not that He died for them, was buried, and rose again for their justification (again, only in Paul's gospel will you see the 'purpose' of the cross, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery).
Martha in John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.... she believes that and proclaims that He is THE CHRIST, the Son of God. This is the whole thrust and teaching of the book of John. Do a word search on 'the Christ' in John and follow it through.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. We see these two verses coming right after Thomas 'doubting' and so these verses sum up WHY these things were written down (in John) that they would believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and believing (believing what? that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God) ye might have life through his name. This is not the same message as Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again for your justification. Again, that gospel of grace is found only in Paul's epistles.

Also check out 'believe and believing' in the book of John and you will see what Israel was to believe about Christ. Again it is not believing that he died for their sins, was buried, and raised for their justification.
Paul is the only one who tells us that the resurrection is for our justification. Peter (in Acts 2) preaches that Christ was raised (he does not say for our justification) but rather to sit on David's throne...a definite reference to His being Israel's KING (again, not head of the body...different relationship...things that are different are not the same).

The gospel of the grace of God is part of that body of truth revealed to the apostle Paul, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. This truth was HID IN GOD, not in scripture. It is unsearchable (that is untrackable, untraceable in scripture) found only in Pauline scripture. Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[eph3Nine]

biblebeliever said:

The gospel of the grace of God is part of that body of truth revealed to the apostle Paul, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. This truth was HID IN GOD, not in scripture. It is unsearchable (that is untrackable, untraceable in scripture) found only in Pauline scripture. Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

AMEN....NOwhere do I see the earthly Jesus preaching two gospels. He lived and preached the LAW of Moses, as that is what He came to Israel for.Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The gospel of the GRACE of God was NOT revealed UNTIL Paul...it is part of the MYSTERY truths HID in God and SECRET until due time...and Paul was the due time testifier.Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

John was a minister to the circumcision and put forth the ONLY gospel in town...the Kingdom Gospel...having to do with thrones, and Kingdoms and Kings and prophecy.

What God gave to Paul was totally NEW!

 

[Schroeder]

Why is there a seperation between jews and gentiles. there is neither jew nor gentiles only saved and unsaved. what is different is what God promised for the JEWISH NATION and the church. God used the jews to show his Love and share it to others the way to salvation, they messed up so he took it from them and gave it to the Church. that is what it speaks about in Rom when he talks of the tree and us being grafted in. He made a Promise and it CAN NOT be broken even if they did not do as they were asked. He has given us the task of sharing the Gospel of salvation untill he gives it back to the jewish nation at the time of the tribulation. It is all wrapped around what he asked the jews to do and what he promised them. it is not about the jews and the gentiles.

 

[Schroeder]

biblebeliever said:

AMEN....NOwhere do I see the earthly Jesus preaching two gospels. He lived and preached the LAW of Moses, as that is what He came to Israel for.Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The gospel of the GRACE of God was NOT revealed UNTIL Paul...it is part of the MYSTERY truths HID in God and SECRET until due time...and Paul was the due time testifier.Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

John was a minister to the circumcision and put forth the ONLY gospel in town...the Kingdom Gospel...having to do with thrones, and Kingdoms and Kings and prophecy.

What God gave to Paul was totally NEW!

why does Peter teach the same message then. he said whoever believes just as we are saved and receive the SPirit. Acts 10:43,11:17 16:31. The mystery is Christ himself. what all the PROPHETs were talking about. which they didnt quite get. they only thought of earthly kingdoms when it was about a Spiritual kingdom and salvation. they want a earthly king. the Prophets spoke of the Spiritual kingdom. that was the mystery they failed to see. SO i dont think what Paul spoke was new, couldnt be since Christ taught him himself. What he finnaly saw was the mystery of Christ and his message that the Prophets spoke of long ago concerning Him. Paul new the scripture rather well but missed it all, God opened his eyes to the mystery of Christ work and what it truelly was and the whole purpose of what they were told to do and how they were to do it. IT ALL revealed Christ and his work.

 

[rightlydividingtheword]

I just believe bible, How can you not see this, it's obvious!!!

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus came to fulfill all prophecy in regards to Israel,not the world, as you see in the text it refers strictly to the nation of Israel!!


Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus earthly ministry,what he taught,what he did,how he died,everything was all prophesied!!!
Nowhere in the gospel that the twelve apostles preached was heaven ever preached as a reward for the JEWS.
It wouldn't make any sense seeing that god told them where they would go.....

Matthew19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

They were never promised heaven, that not in their contract.They were promised an earthly kingdom, never heaven,That is one of the main differences between Peter and Paul's gospel.

JUST READ YOUR BIBLE, IT'S SO OBVIOUS!!!!!A KINDERGARTENER CAN GET THIS....