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What is "design" and how to detect it

Kylie

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And what do you think of the mountains of testable and verifiable evidence that the sun formed through a natural process? Why do you discount that evidence?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I take it you are unfazed that these words appear in peer-reviewed science, not some religious document:

"A formal demonstration of the universal common ancestry hypothesis has not been achieved and is unlikely to be feasible in principle"
Yes, I'm unfazed. What do you suppose a formal demonstration the universal common ancestry hypothesis would consist of?
 
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ChetSinger

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And what do you think of the mountains of testable and verifiable evidence that the sun formed through a natural process? Why do you discount that evidence?
I don't know how the sun formed. But I'm certain God was behind it, because he's the originator of what we call natural processes. Regardless of whether a Christian believes in a young earth or an old one, we all believe this: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That is, everything we see is due to the will of God.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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1. God of the gaps fallacy- "I don't know. God did it"
2. Begging the question- type of circular reasoning where you put the conclusion in your premise.
 
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SkyWriting

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And what do you think of the mountains of testable and verifiable evidence that the sun formed through a natural process? Why do you discount that evidence?

If Jesus were to cause a blind man to see, an autopsy would likely find
his eyes attached to his nerves in a "natural" manner. There is nothing
wrong with the evidence. It's the interpretation of it that is a guess.

"Natural and physical scientists since the 17th century have learned most of what they know about the universe through the scientific method. This method continues to define the way scientists conduct the work of science. It has withstood the test of time.

The scientific method is “a method of research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and the hypothesis is empirically tested1“ (Table 1). First, the scientist makes an observation or identifies a problem related to that observation. He or she then creates a hypothesis to explain the observation. The hypothesis then allows the scientist to make predictions. The scientist then tests the predictions by experiments or by further observations under controlled conditions.

Falsification is an important element of the scientific method. The scientist ideally attempts to disprove or falsify the hypothesis. If the hypothesis can be disproved, it can then be discarded so that the scientist can move on to a more accurate hypothesis. On the other hand, if experimentation or further observation confirms the hypothesis, this confirmation does not necessarily prove the hypothesis to be true. Other scientists are allowed to test and to attempt to falsify the hypothesis. Repeated confirmations of the hypothesis over time may result in the hypothesis becoming a theory. A theory is a general principle that scientists use to explain phenomena and predict events."
 
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SkyWriting

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"...and the four rules of Conway's Game of Life can animate patterns that can compute or replicate, etc."

Which computer use theses four rules. The seven computer in your car run of the games of life rules?

What other parts of your life use "the four rules of Conway's Game of Life"?
 
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ChetSinger

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1. God of the gaps fallacy- "I don't know. God did it"
2. Begging the question- type of circular reasoning where you put the conclusion in your premise.
Hello Jon. I'm not here for a debate, just conversation.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Which computer use theses four rules. The seven computer in your car run of the games of life rules?
Huh?? keep taking the meds, kid
What other parts of your life use "the four rules of Conway's Game of Life"?
I have no idea what your point is; if you can explain it, I'll try to address it.

E.T.A. I used Conway's Game of Life as a very simple example of emergence; does that help?
 
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SkyWriting

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I have no idea what your point is; if you can explain it, I'll try to address it.E.T.A. I used Conway's Game of Life as a very simple example of emergence; does that help?

I'm not seeing what you've imagined. Are there any
peer reviewed publications that show emergence?

Are you saying the internet is showing signs of being
more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?

Is your car more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?
Is the world biosystem more intelligent than a sum
of it's parts?

Is Donkey-Kong more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?
Should I check with my great-granddaughter on this?
 
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Loudmouth

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If Jesus were to cause a blind man to see, an autopsy would likely find
his eyes attached to his nerves in a "natural" manner. There is nothing
wrong with the evidence. It's the interpretation of it that is a guess.

How is it a guess?

If Jesus did heal a blind man, would Jesus also produce fake scars from eye surgeries that the man never had, just to make it look like it was done by humans through normal procedures?

Would God also plant fake evidence for natural processes as it relates to geologic, cosmological, and evolutionary histories?
 
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Loudmouth

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Why couldn't the same thing apply to evolution?
 
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Black Dog

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What evidence did ID proponents use to predict the functionality? How could their claim have been falsified at the time of the claim? Or was it just a guess?

And what rabbit hole? You mean the one that scientists used, the one that led to a more complete understanding of DNA?
 
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Loudmouth

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How is that different than any other molecule?

Also, the title of that article says it all:
"Integration of syntactic and semantic properties of the DNA code reveals chromosomes as thermodynamic machines converting energy into information"
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00018-013-1394-1

Same semantics and syntactic information as found here:

2H2 + O2 -----> 2H2O


A complex chemical chain reaction is still a chemical chain reaction.



What is the specified complexity of this sequence?

CAAATCGTCTAGCAAACTGCTGATCCAGTTTAACTCACCAAATTATAGCC

What is the specified complexity of this object?



I keep hearing these terms thrown around, but I have yet to see specified complexity ever measured for anything in biology.

Shannon's information theory tells us about the information carrying capacity of a sequence, not whether the sequence is meaningful or functional.

As it turns out, evolution increases information as defined by Shannon.

Nucleic Acids Res. 2000 Jul 15; 28(14): 2794–2799.

Evolution of biological information


Thomas D. Schneider:

Abstract

How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC102656/

They were trying to show Behe miscalculated but their calculations inadvertendly showed it would take 162 million for 2 functional mutations to appear and fix within humans.

Just as it should take 150 million Powerball lottery drawings to get just one winner since the odds of winning are 1 in 150 million.

Behe is drawing the bulls eye around the bullet hole. He ignores the trillions of dual functional mutations that didn't fix. He is trying to calculate the odds of something happening after it already happened, which is nonsense.

What that means is random mutations aren't the source of genetic change people like to think it is.

What it means is that Behe doesn't know how probabilities work.

Unfazed by these words that appear in a peer-reviewed source?

I agree with them. There hasn't been a formal demonstration of a universal common ancestor. I am just fine with a pool of ancestors. Either way, all life shares the same basic metabolic pathways because of a shared ancestor, and the same genetic systems because of a shared ancestor, even if they aren't the same shared ancestor.

Why don't consider "Science" a real scientific source?

I do. Why don't you? Why do you ignore all of the scientists that state quite clearly that life evolved?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I'm not seeing what you've imagined. Are there any
peer reviewed publications that show emergence?
I'm not sure what you mean by, 'publications that show emergence'. If you mean published papers about emergence, this is a pretty thorough treatment: The Concept of Emergence in Complexity Science.
Are you saying the internet is showing signs of being
more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?
Is your car more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?
Is the world biosystem more intelligent than a sum
of it's parts?
No to all.
Is Donkey-Kong more intelligent than a sum of it's parts?
Should I check with my great-granddaughter on this?
Yes; yes, I think you should.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm not sure what you mean by, 'publications that show emergence'. If you mean published papers about emergence, this is a pretty thorough treatment: The Concept of Emergence in Complexity Science.

According to your source, the field is vague and poorly defined.
The authors, naturally, claim to have the only understandable
treatment of the topic. While I agree with the first tenant, I
question the second.


http://www.researchgate.net/publica...Finding_Coherence_between_Theory_and_Practice
 
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ChetSinger

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Why couldn't the same thing apply to evolution?
If I'm understand you correctly, Christian theistic evolutionists believe it does. Christian beliefs aren't monolithic in this area.

I'm content to treat the text rather literally. If I'm wrong I don't think God will be upset with me about it.
 
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