What is CRT?

spiritfilledjm · Sep 17, 2021

Virginia mom who survived Maoist China eviscerates school board's critical race theory push

Critical Race Theory In Wisconsin K12 Education | MacIver Institute

From the article: "This is not the only time the La Crosse Area School District has put money towards Critical Race Theory and the indoctrination of their staff and students. Superintendent Aaron Engel agreed to sponsor the “White Privilege Symposium La Crosse, WI: A Vision for Racial Equity: History, Truth, and a Call for Action” to be held later this year in December. School district taxpayers will pay $1,000.00 for the district to be a “Respecting” sponsor, which comes with admission to the symposium for three district employees and three copies of the book “Waking Up White.” The goal of the symposium is to “eliminate race-based privilege and create more equitable, welcoming communities.”"
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Even if the original intention isn't to blame the white man for the world's problems, that sure seems to be what is happening.

If it is teaching anything other than true equality, then it is just racism.

Norbert L · Sep 17, 2021

Tom 1 said:
You've got that the wrong way round.

CRT recognises the effects of racism in modern society and what led to those effects. It doesn't 'assert race as a cause', any more than I could say I insert a hole in the roof as the cause of rain on my floor. That many countries in the world have experienced various problems because of racism is a fact, not a hypothesis.

'How does CRT deal with the reasons for and effects of issues within a society?'

That is the purpose of CRT - those effects exist independently of the theory, hence there being various different ways of interpreting and evaluating the effects of racism in the US, in this instance. Racism is not a theoretical concept. If it was not a theory that related to the causes and effects of racism it would be called something else, for example a theory addressing the effects of poor nutrition on education would have a different name, something to do with nutrition and education.

If I understand what you are saying, your idea is that because CRT attempts to understand racism and its effects, the theory itself must be racist? Can you explain why you think that is a valid argument?

Can you boil that down, you're claiming numerous things.

-It doesn't 'assert race as a cause'

-That many countries in the world have experienced various problems because of racism is a fact, not a hypothesis.

-those effects exist independently of the theory, hence there being various different ways of interpreting and evaluating the effects of racism in the US, in this instance

-Racism is not a theoretical concept.

-If it was not a theory that related to the causes and effects of racism it would be called something else

This last one I can answer off hand.

-because CRT attempts to understand racism and its effects, the theory itself must be racist?

It claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not? Now it gets back to your OP about how to define words. What does whiteness even mean?

Just off hand, it seems to me that events taking place are about the people, government and news media. A lot of political hay is being made out of whiteness. In my observation this is actually causing the divisions in our society and not the solutions.

To paraphrase the Bible, by it's fruit you shall know them.

essentialsaltes · Sep 17, 2021

Tom 1 said:
That's it for now, the first question is: Is this difficult to understand? Is it difficult to understand that CRT does not primarily deal with the concept of racism, as defined above, but with the multiplicity of its underlying causes and immediate and long term effects?

While I like where you're going (though we'll see how many people sincerely try to follow) I don't see how studying the causes and effects of racism can be separated from being about racism. Is the distinction you're trying to make that it does not deal with pointing at any particular person or act and declaring "That kind of thing/person is racist."?

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

essentialsaltes said:
While I like where you're going (though we'll see how many people sincerely try to follow) I don't see how studying the causes and effects of racism can be separated from being about racism. Is the distinction you're trying to make that it does not deal with pointing at any particular person or act and declaring "That kind of thing/person is racist."?

What I’m getting at is that in discussions of CRT people often try to avoid dealing with any of the questions it raises by going for the lowest common denominator- racism is bad, nobody should be racist etc., as if that simply resolves the matter. My point is that CRT isn’t asking ‘is racism bad?’, but rather takes racism as something that exists and tries to explore and explain the effects of racism in a particular context.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
Can you boil that down, you're claiming numerous things.

-It doesn't 'assert race as a cause'

-That many countries in the world have experienced various problems because of racism is a fact, not a hypothesis.

-those effects exist independently of the theory, hence there being various different ways of interpreting and evaluating the effects of racism in the US, in this instance

-Racism is not a theoretical concept.

-If it was not a theory that related to the causes and effects of racism it would be called something else

This last one I can answer off hand.

-because CRT attempts to understand racism and its effects, the theory itself must be racist?

It claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not? Now it gets back to your OP about how to define words. What does whiteness even mean?

Just off hand, it seems to me that events taking place are about the people, government and news media. A lot of political hay is being made out of whiteness. In my observation this is actually causing the divisions in our society and not the solutions.

To paraphrase the Bible, by it's fruit you shall know them.

Norbert, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to expect you to respond to basic questions in my thread with an answer. Do you think that is unreasonable?

I’ll have one more go, if you would rather go off on a tangent instead of answering these questions I don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

1) Do you understand that CRT attempts to elucidate the causes and effects of racism, rather than attempting to determine what racism is?
2) Do you believe that by attempting to do this, CRT must be inherently racist? To give another example, do you think that people studying the causes and effects of tidal patterns and developing theories to explain those things are by definition tidal pattern bigots?

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Even if the original intention isn't to blame the white man for the world's problems, that sure seems to be what is happening.

How do you get that idea from the article you posted?

Please read the OP again. This thread is not about whether CRT is good/bad/accurate etc, it’s a response to simplistic notions posted about CRT that are either disingenuous or just responses to something the person posting doesn’t understand and hasn’t tried to. Some people claim it is impossible to understand, which, given that it isn’t particularly esoteric or mysterious, seems to be nothing more than an attempt to just make it go away.

The point of this thread is to look at what CRT is, not an evaluation of how useful or accurate it is. Whether it is useful or accurate cannot possibly be judged without any understanding of what it actually is, so understanding is the first step.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Virginia mom who survived Maoist China eviscerates school board's critical race theory push

Critical Race Theory In Wisconsin K12 Education | MacIver Institute

From the article: "This is not the only time the La Crosse Area School District has put money towards Critical Race Theory and the indoctrination of their staff and students. Superintendent Aaron Engel agreed to sponsor the “White Privilege Symposium La Crosse, WI: A Vision for Racial Equity: History, Truth, and a Call for Action” to be held later this year in December. School district taxpayers will pay $1,000.00 for the district to be a “Respecting” sponsor, which comes with admission to the symposium for three district employees and three copies of the book “Waking Up White.” The goal of the symposium is to “eliminate race-based privilege and create more equitable, welcoming communities.”"
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Even if the original intention isn't to blame the white man for the world's problems, that sure seems to be what is happening.

If it is teaching anything other than true equality, then it is just racism.

A couple of quotes from your second link:

‘Critical Race Theory replaces the founding principles of this country such as equality, excellence and equal protection under the law‘

How can it be said that a country where slavery was practiced for most of its history was founded on principles of equality and equal protection under the law? That simply makes no sense.

Critical Race Theory replaces the founding principles of this country such as equality, excellence and equal protection under the law and replaces them with the communist ideal of equity, that is, every American, no matter their ability, work ethic or moral fiber, should end up achieving the same result. Instead of every single one of us, no matter the color of our skin, no matter our ethnicity or our current lot in life, being guaranteed certain unalienable rights by our Creator, under CRT, we would be dictated to by the all-mighty government that no matter our individual merit, ability or talent, we will all end up in the same place, an equal place.

This is pure invention. If you think this is an accurate explanation of CRT, please provide some reason/evidence of why you think this.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
"experts" demanding 11 year old boys apologise for being white.

While I accept it’s generally true that people can get carried away, whatever the subject is, whenever I follow the link to an article supposedly showing some outrageous act it turns out to be a mountain made out of a molehill.

Norbert L · Sep 17, 2021

Tom 1 said:
Norbert, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to expect you to respond to basic questions in my thread with an answer. Do you think that is unreasonable?

Likewise, I'm waiting for the answers that were raised in my previous comment. CRT claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not? Considering what's in the OP about how words can mean anything.

I’ll have one more go, if you would rather go off on a tangent instead of answering these questions I don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

Including ideas from the OP is not going off in a tangent. These type of questions can be asked again for emphasis. CRT claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not? What does whiteness even mean?

1) Do you understand that CRT attempts to elucidate the causes and effects of racism, rather than attempting to determine what racism is?

Elucidating causes and effects with language that can mean different things [OP] towards people of different backgrounds is only a recipe for creating more problems.

2) Do you believe that by attempting to do this, CRT must be inherently racist? To give another example, do you think that people studying the causes and effects of tidal patterns and developing theories to explain those things are inherently tidal pattern bigots?

Two questions at once about the same thing. Doesn't make for easy reading let alone for me to try and give a well thought out response. So I'll answer the first. Yes CRT is another racist ideology academia has come up when it attempts to categorize mankind into different groups by the color of their skin and ethnicity. It's going to produce more bigotry instead when teaching people to view the world through race and group identity.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
Considering what's in the OP about how words can mean anything.

There is nothing in the op that resembles this idea.

Norbert L said:
CRT claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not?

It does? Where would that be?

Norbert L said:
Including ideas from the OP is not going off in a tangent

Your ideas don't come from the OP

Norbert L said:
Yes CRT is another racist ideology academia has come up when it attempts to categorize mankind into different groups by the color of their skin and ethnicity. It's going to produce more bigotry instead when teaching people to view the world through race and group identity.

Random statements like this are why I thought this thread might be useful.

CRT does not 'categorize mankind into different groups'. CRT theorists recognise that racism exists. It existed long before anyone thought of CRT, or any other theory that attempts to understand racism, and may well outlast any of them, given the amount of visceral resistance there is to even having basic discussions about it.

1) Racism exists
2) Racism has played a role in the practice of slavery, mass killing, social inequality, and a whole range of other practices that disadvantage groups of people based on things like origin or ethnic characteristics
3) In terms of your above notion, this is the important part: racism exists independently of theories about racism. The effects of racism exist independently of any theories about racism. The reasons for racism exist independently of any theory about racism.

Do you see the point here? CRT is not posited on some need to categorize people - CRT theorists recognise the basic reality that people have been doing that for millenia, categorizing people according to different characteristics and treating some groups differently to others. This is a historical reality.

What CRT theorists attempt to do is understand why this happens, what the effects of it are in modern society, and what might be done to redress any negative results of those effects.

Sparagmos · Sep 17, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Virginia mom who survived Maoist China eviscerates school board's critical race theory push

Critical Race Theory In Wisconsin K12 Education | MacIver Institute

From the article: "This is not the only time the La Crosse Area School District has put money towards Critical Race Theory and the indoctrination of their staff and students. Superintendent Aaron Engel agreed to sponsor the “White Privilege Symposium La Crosse, WI: A Vision for Racial Equity: History, Truth, and a Call for Action” to be held later this year in December. School district taxpayers will pay $1,000.00 for the district to be a “Respecting” sponsor, which comes with admission to the symposium for three district employees and three copies of the book “Waking Up White.” The goal of the symposium is to “eliminate race-based privilege and create more equitable, welcoming communities.”"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if the original intention isn't to blame the white man for the world's problems, that sure seems to be what is happening.

If it is teaching anything other than true equality, then it is just racism.

Acknowledging and understanding privilege isn’t blaming white people. We all pretty much understand that privilege is not something that people choose, but a state that we are in, often by sheer fortune. As someone who has participated in and facilitated trainings developed in part from critical race theory, I can tell you that no blame is assigned to anyone. No one is teaching that white people today are to blame, or guilty for, acts committed by previous generations. That is a straw-man and reactive.

Sparagmos · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
CRT claims that whiteness in our society is injustice does it not?

Can you explain this and cite your source for context?

Norbert L · Sep 17, 2021

Tom 1 said:
There is nothing in the op that resembles this idea. It does? Where would that be? Your ideas don't come from the OP

"Lateral thinking": the solving of problems by an indirect and creative approach, typically through viewing the problem in a new and unusual light.

It's a good way to express one thing but mean the opposite without even knowing it. Basically to use this idea "urban myth that the Inuit have 50+ words for snow and the difficulty of reducing CRT to the basic definition of racism most of us have. In English there is only one word - racism - that most people think of in relation to what CRT is about. If there were in fact an unlimited number of words that could be used to define each element of what CRT proposes to address, things would be simpler for those who write about it. But there are no such words," and then claim this: "so understanding CRT requires a bit of lateral thinking"

To make use of an urban myth and then claim CRT is not about it, does not affirm that such a thing is true. This line of reasoning is the double speak of CRT. When looking at what is occurring in real life the opposite is happening. You should know it by its' fruit.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
To make use of an urban myth and then claim CRT is not about it, does not affirm that such a thing is true. This line of reasoning is the double speak of CRT.

The urban myth is about the number of words the Inuit use for snow, by way of comparison with there only being one word, racism, which makes it difficult to talk about anything related without people constantly coming back to the specific meaning of that word.

Tom 1 · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
"Lateral thinking": the solving of problems by an indirect and creative approach, typically through viewing the problem in a new and unusual light.

It's a good way to express one thing but mean the opposite without even knowing it. Basically to use this idea "urban myth that the Inuit have 50+ words for snow and the difficulty of reducing CRT to the basic definition of racism most of us have. In English there is only one word - racism - that most people think of in relation to what CRT is about. If there were in fact an unlimited number of words that could be used to define each element of what CRT proposes to address, things would be simpler for those who write about it. But there are no such words," and then claim this: "so understanding CRT requires a bit of lateral thinking"

To make use of an urban myth and then claim CRT is not about it, does not affirm that such a thing is true. This line of reasoning is the double speak of CRT. When looking at what is occurring in real life the opposite is happening. You should know it by its' fruit.

So now we're at the posting vids because that somehow proves - what? Come on man, if you don't want to have a 2 way discussion, why waste your time and mine?

Norbert L · Sep 17, 2021

Sparagmos said:
Can you explain this and cite your source for context?

Which is exactly what I'd like to know about CRT too, other than a whole bunch of people getting angry about two things. Their government in general and that their teaching system is trying to influence their children's morals by incorporating CRT state run teaching.

Norbert L · Sep 17, 2021

Tom 1 said:
So now we're at the posting vids because that somehow proves - what? Come on man, if you don't want to have a 2 way discussion, why waste your time and mine?

We would agree that life doesn't exist on mars. I think? But seeing doesn't need very long worded discussions to understand the observable data.

I don't like lateral thinking.

Sparagmos · Sep 17, 2021

Norbert L said:
Which is exactly what I'd like to know about CRT too, other than a whole bunch of people getting angry about two things. Their government in general and that their teaching system is trying to influence their children's morals by incorporating CRT state run teaching.

Are you just making stuff up here? Every time someone asks you to explain what you mean you respond like this.

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Virginia mom who survived Maoist China eviscerates school board's critical race theory push

Critical Race Theory In Wisconsin K12 Education | MacIver Institute

From the article: "This is not the only time the La Crosse Area School District has put money towards Critical Race Theory and the indoctrination of their staff and students. Superintendent Aaron Engel agreed to sponsor the “White Privilege Symposium La Crosse, WI: A Vision for Racial Equity: History, Truth, and a Call for Action” to be held later this year in December. School district taxpayers will pay $1,000.00 for the district to be a “Respecting” sponsor, which comes with admission to the symposium for three district employees and three copies of the book “Waking Up White.” The goal of the symposium is to “eliminate race-based privilege and create more equitable, welcoming communities.”"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if the original intention isn't to blame the white man for the world's problems, that sure seems to be what is happening.

If it is teaching anything other than true equality, then it is just racism.

You're confusing equal outcome with equal opportunity, the latter of which is the goal, trying to make it so that the prejudices are not influencing behavior as much as they are and thus having a sense of humility that culture can and does influence individuals in a structural way, the systemic racism that is also involved to a degree in CRT's discussion, I believe

This isn't about blame in some immediate sense and it isn't demonizing a group, it is noting that one group is treated as the norm and the others are either marginalized or fall in line and behave in a way that is "acceptable" to that majority norm group. Recognizing that privilege is the first step to moving towards a society that is more equitable and regards those hegemonical ideas as absurd, to be rejected and move past them to something better, not perfect

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

Yes CRT is another racist ideology academia has come up when it attempts to categorize mankind into different groups by the color of their skin and ethnicity. It's going to produce more bigotry instead when teaching people to view the world through race and group identity.

First off, what do you mean by "another racist ideology"? You think this is a common thing? In which case, what else is like this in academia, (which you seem super familiar with)?

And no, categorizing in itself is not racist, the creating of prejudicial attitudes in regards to a particular group and favoring another is where it becomes a problem.

Me recognizing that society regards me differently in my own white majority neighborhood based on my whiteness versus someone's blackness or being Hispanic, etc is not saying I'm a horrible person, but that society needs to be fixed in some way so that those presumptions we have are not nearly as much of a problem (they cannot really be eliminated, prejudice, stereotyping, bias, these are kind of hard baked into our psychology, but we can recognize them and correct those mistaken ideas by introspection)

I can view people through that racial or ethnic identity without reducing them to it. My black friend is also a Christian, for example, she's also, to my knowledge, a Democrat. Her experience is very different and I recall that almost being a joke in high school in regards to her being a so-called Oreo, which really just reflects how many black people feel they need to conform to whiteness in order to be accepted and not marginalized by acting "too black"

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