What is atheism?

civilwarbuff said:

Such as......?

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I consider it good to sustain as much of the natural environment as possible. I don't think the "others" in Jesus' admonition includes musk ox, army ants, or orchids. Would you agree, both that sustaining the environment is good and that it is not covered by "Do unto others..."?

Ophiolite said:

I consider it good to sustain as much of the natural environment as possible. I don't think the "others" in Jesus' admonition includes musk ox, army ants, or orchids. Would you agree, both that sustaining the environment is good and that it is not covered by "Do unto others..."?

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I can see that you don't seem to grasp what is meant by 'others'. But when it comes to the environment that falls under being good stewards to what God has provided for us.

The Parable of the Talents
Mat 25:14 For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
Mat 25:16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
Mat 25:17 In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
Mat 25:20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 And he also that received the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mat 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mat 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mat 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mat 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Those that cared for what the Master (God) gave them were rewarded....not so much the other one.....

Maria Billingsley said:

Motivation.

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How do you detect motivation?

civilwarbuff said:

I can see that you don't seem to grasp what is meant by 'others'. But when it comes to the environment that falls under being good stewards to what God has provided for us.

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And so it seems that you agree with me that the Golden Rule does not define all that is good, but that we should include the Stewardship of the planet as well. So we have refined and improved the definition of the standard of "good". Perhaps there are other concepts from the NT that should be added? Can you think of any?

I sense, perhaps I'm paranoid, some mild hostility in your reply. I hope not. All I am doing here is disagreeing with ZPN's claim that "God is good" represents a standard in the sense in which he defined standard.

You do know it is OK to agree with me on some points of lexicology, even if I am atheistic to the Christian God. It is not sinful and I am not trying to trick you into saying something you will later regret and denounce. None of these posts would have been necessary if ZPN had not misused the word "standard". Such is life. Such is humanity.

Ophiolite said:

And so it seems that you agree with me that the Golden Rule does not define all that is good, but that we should include the Stewardship of the planet as well. So we have refined and improved the definition of the standard of "good". Perhaps there are other concepts from the NT that should be added? Can you think of any?

I sense, perhaps I'm paranoid, some mild hostility in your reply. I hope not. All I am doing here is disagreeing with ZPN's claim that "God is good" represents a standard in the sense in which he defined standard.

You do know it is OK to agree with me on some points of lexicology, even if I am atheistic to the Christian God. It is not sinful and I am not trying to trick you into saying something you will later regret and denounce. None of these posts would have been necessary if ZPN had not misused the word "standard". Such is life. Such is humanity.

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These are some observations that I have wondered about . I noticed that you are labeled agnostic on your profile but in your content you refer to yourself as an atheist . Isn't an agnostic a better description than an atheist since we only believe certain things ...in other words , many believe there is no pre-existent, creator and eternal God but can't possibly know since there is something in which we are aware called delusion. Man has strongly believed many things which were later demonstrated as being untrue . Christians who are now atheist have demonstrated that they possess the capacity to be wrong in their belief . How can they be sure that they are still wrong in their unbelief ?
It appears to me anyway , that man is becoming smarter but many smart people are far from wise . ( Bernie Madoff comes to mind as does Adolph Hitler and I won;t even go into Washington DC . ) I have read that God gives grace to the humble but is opposed to the proud . If that may be true ( as it certainly may be just as it may not be ,) then someone who is not humble enough to say that there may be a God , would be destitute of the grace that would allow them to believe .
It stands to reason that something called "the great falling away " may be due in part to pride through knowledge . Is wisdom different than knowledge for an atheist ? If so , where does wisdom ( apart from knowledge ) fit in the evolution of the species and if it is the same thing as knowledge then why a differentiation ? By the way , I appreciate your kind demeanor even though I think it comes from God .

NeedyFollower said:

These are some observations that I have wondered about . I noticed that you are labeled agnostic on your profile but in your content you refer to yourself as an atheist . Isn't an agnostic a better description than an atheist since we only believe certain things ...in other words , many believe there is no pre-existent, creator and eternal God but can't possibly know since there is something in which we are aware called delusion.

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I am agnostic to the possibility of God, Gods, or gods, but atheistic in regard to the Christian God (and all others Gods claimed by humans that I have heard of.)

NeedyFollower said:

Man has strongly believed many things which were later demonstrated as being untrue . Christians who are now atheist have demonstrated that they possess the capacity to be wrong in their belief . How can they be sure that they are still wrong in their unbelief ? .

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Many of the things humans have believed, do and will believe are true are believed on the basis of insufficient, zero, or contradictory evidence. I don't place a high value on the skeptical ability of most humans most of the time, and on no humans all of the time.

I have no certainty about anything. I suspect certainty is a dangerous commodity in this world. I was a Christian hence, I periodically review my rejection of Christianity, expose myself to the thoughts and experiences of Christians and generally try to keep an open mind. My conclusion, one that moves asymptotically closer to certainty, is that the Christian God does not exist.

NeedyFollower said:

It appears to me anyway , that man is becoming smarter but many smart people are far from wise . ( Bernie Madoff comes to mind as does Adolph Hitler and I won;t even go into Washington DC . ) I have read that God gives grace to the humble but is opposed to the proud . If that may be true ( as it certainly may be just as it may not be ,) then someone who is not humble enough to say that there may be a God , would be destitute of the grace that would allow them to believe . .

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I'm not sure we are getting smarter, it's just that the giants whose shoulders Newton stood on to see much further, are way larger today.

Your grace/humility reasoning is clever, though I'm not sure it isn't a circular argument.

NeedyFollower said:

It stands to reason that something called "the great falling away " may be due in part to pride through knowledge . Is wisdom different than knowledge for an atheist ? If so , where does wisdom ( apart from knowledge ) fit in the evolution of the species and if it is the same thing as knowledge then why a differentiation ?

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Is wisdom different to knowledge? I used to have a signature line on another forum that went:

data > information > knowledge > wisdom

Wisdom points us towards the right thing to do with knowledge. I sometimes ponder wisdom > ?

Wisdom is an emergent property made possible by language in a social milieu. If we had a little more of it most of the Amazon rain forest would still be in place.

NeedyFollower said:

By the way , I appreciate your kind demeanor even though I think it comes from God .

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It is nice of you to say so. The more common description of my posts or personality read: arrogant; close-minded; rude; offensive; ignorant; hateful; blind; etc.

You have, therefore, either made a major error of judgement, or (and this is the hypothesis I favour) you've seen what I'm actually trying to say, or (I'm not so keen on this one) you haven't read enough of my posts.

Larnievc said:

How do you detect motivation?

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Ask. Simply ask if you need to know.

Ophiolite said:

And so it seems that you agree with me that the Golden Rule does not define all that is good, but that we should include the Stewardship of the planet as well. So we have refined and improved the definition of the standard of "good". Perhaps there are other concepts from the NT that should be added? Can you think of any?

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Not what I said at all.....sheesh....

Ophiolite said:

I sense, perhaps I'm paranoid, some mild hostility in your reply. I hope not. All I am doing here is disagreeing with ZPN's claim that "God is good" represents a standard in the sense in which he defined standard.

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Yes, I would agree you are paranoid....there was no hostility anywhere in my reply.

Ophiolite said:

You do know it is OK to agree with me on some points of lexicology, even if I am atheistic to the Christian God. It is not sinful and I am not trying to trick you into saying something you will later regret and denounce. None of these posts would have been necessary if ZPN had not misused the word "standard". Such is life. Such is humanity.

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When your replies start being correct instead of just trying to prove your point I will be happy to agree with you. Until then you may want to spend some time studying 1 Cor 2:14.

NeedyFollower said:

It appears to me anyway , that man is becoming smarter but many smart people are far from wise . ( Bernie Madoff comes to mind as does Adolph Hitler and I won;t even go into Washington DC . ) I have read that God gives grace to the humble but is opposed to the proud . If that may be true ( as it certainly may be just as it may not be ,) then someone who is not humble enough to say that there may be a God , would be destitute of the grace that would allow them to believe .
It stands to reason that something called "the great falling away " may be due in part to pride through knowledge . Is wisdom different than knowledge for an atheist ? If so , where does wisdom ( apart from knowledge ) fit in the evolution of the species and if it is the same thing as knowledge then why a differentiation ? By the way , I appreciate your kind demeanor even though I think it comes from God .

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I agree, it seems to me far too many people confuse intelligence with wisdom. While I certainly can say I am an intelligent I by no means lay any claim to wisdom. If I could I would never have made so many mistakes in my life having the wisdom to avoid them.

Atheism is the position that "God cannot exist, because I do not know Him, even though hundreds of millions of intelligent people do know him".

Maria Billingsley said:

Ask. Simply ask if you need to know.

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Really? You don’t think someone could pretend to be a True Christian and fool people?

civilwarbuff said:

Not what I said at all.....sheesh....

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Notice the line in my signature where I accept responsibility when people misunderstand my posts. I ask that they show me the same courtesy. I would appreciate it if you took another stab at explaining what you meant.

civilwarbuff said:

Yes, I would agree you are paranoid....there was no hostility anywhere in my reply..

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Well that is encouraging. Thank you.

civilwarbuff said:

When your replies start being correct instead of just trying to prove your point I will be happy to agree with you. Until then you may want to spend some time studying 1 Cor 2:14.

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This is not so encouraging. Definite hostility there.

Perhaps you would pinpoint for me which part of my statement was incorrect and why you think it was so. For your convenience this was what you responded to:
"You do know it is OK to agree with me on some points of lexicology, even if I am atheistic to the Christian God. It is not sinful and I am not trying to trick you into saying something you will later regret and denounce. None of these posts would have been necessary if ZPN had not misused the word "standard". Such is life. Such is humanity."

Ophiolite said:

This is not so encouraging. Definite hostility there.

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Once more, no hostility just pointing out facts. If you noticed I used the word 'replies' meaning multiple responses not just the paragraph that my response was linked to. And by studying 1 Cor 2:14 could give you insight as to why I made the statement about incorrect replies.

civilwarbuff said:

Once more, no hostility just pointing out facts. If you noticed I used the word 'replies' meaning multiple responses not just the paragraph that my response was linked to. And by studying 1 Cor 2:14 could give you insight as to why I made the statement about incorrect replies.

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I do not think that my replies were incorrect. It seems I lack the ability to gain the insight you think awaits for me in 1 Cor 2:14 and onwards.

So for, I think the the third time of implicitly, or explicitly asking, would you be kind enough to identify where and how you believe my replies were incorrect. I am open to the possibility that they are. I would like to correct them if I am wrong. I am asking for your help to do so. The help you have offered so far has not worked.

You assure me there is nothing hostile in your replies. I note that if you were to choose not assist me directly to understand where and how my replies may be incorrect that would look suspiciously like passive aggressive behaviour. By all means reference specific verses of Corinthians to specific errors on my part, but specificity is the likely key to getting your point across.

Larnievc said:

Really? You don’t think someone could pretend to be a True Christian and fool people?

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One could pretend to be a Christian but it would be impossible to pretend to be a "true Christian". God knows who is with Him and who is not. The wheat and the tares are mixed together and they remain together till the end. God will let the light shine through the darkness so that His Kingdom continually grows. As I rephrase your comment, some but not all are impostors. Discernment plays a big part in the Christian walk.

ZNP said:

Please refer me to the post where I did this. Thanks

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Post #16

This is the relevant portion:
"So I have another question, and again I expect there is an answer, so this is simply to help me understand. In science we are very precise in our measurements. There is an interesting history on the standard unit for the kilogram, it has changed repeatedly from a measure of water, to a certain amount of platinum, to a certain amount of iridium, until now it is defined by an even more complicated approach. The reason for this is that we found our previous standards were changing their mass over time. Likewise the standard unit for a meter has changed multiple times as well. The reason is that scientists need standard units so that when an experiment is done using 1 kg of a substance everyone knows exactly what that means. The Chinese scientists don't have their opinion about what a kg is, which is different from the Russian kg, or the US kg. We all have exactly the same understanding of what one kg is and it doesn't matter who or where the the person is.

For me, the standard unit for "good" is God. What is the standard unit for "good" for an atheist?"

In this you very clearly and succinctly describe scientific standards, emphasising their precision and likening them to your standard for "good". I have been challenging this, over multiple posts, because their is no precision in God is good. It lack specificity. None of your numerous replies (for which I appreciate the effort you have made) got anywhere near addressing that point.

I repeat, I have no problem with you saying "God is good" provides a foundation for your ethics. I do have a problem with your assertion , made in the post quoted above, that it represents a standard in the scientific sense.

Maria Billingsley said:

One could pretend to be a Christian but it would be impossible to pretend to be a "true Christian". God knows who is with Him and who is not. The wheat and the tares are mixed together and they remain together till the end. God will let the light shine through the darkness so that His Kingdom continually grows. As I rephrase your comment, some but not all are impostors. Discernment plays a big part in the Christian walk.

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My point was about people not being able to tell a pretending Christian to a true Christian.