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Abba
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Ok everyone,sorry i was off. My computer had a virus. Anyways, i just bought an abridged version of Augustine's City of God. Can you refer me to the places you are talking about?
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The Enchridion (sp) is amazing , it's as good as Calvin v PighiusStreet Preacher said:http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565480929/earlychurorgu-21/026-9281350-3044418
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565481070/earlychurorgu-21/026-9281350-3044418
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565481291/earlychurorgu-21/026-9281350-3044418
The above is a list of Augustine's works written to combat the pelagian teaching.
Good Day, AbbaAbba said:Ok everyone,sorry i was off. My computer had a virus. Anyways, i just bought an abridged version of Augustine's City of God. Can you refer me to the places you are talking about?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htmCHAP. 30.--MEN ARE NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS, NOR BY THE FREE DETERMINATION OF THEIR OWN WILL, BUT BY THE GRACE OF GOD THROUGH FAITH. But this part of the human race to which God has promised pardon and a share in His eternal kingdom, can they be restored through the merit of their own works? God forbid. For what good work can a lost man perform, except so far as he has been delivered from perdition? Can they do anything by the free determination of their own will? Again I say, God forbid. For it was by the evil use of his free-will that man destroyed both it and himself. For, as a man who kills himself must, of course, be alive when he kills himself, but after he has killed himself ceases to live, and cannot restore himself to life; so, when man by his own free-will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. "For of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." This is the judgment of the Apostle Peter. And as it is certainly true, what kind of liberty, I ask, can the bond-slave possess, except when it pleases him to sin? For he is freely in bondage who does with pleasure the will of his master. Accordingly, he who is the servant of sin is free to sin. And hence he will not be free to do right, until, being freed from sin, he shall begin to be the servant of righteousness. And this is true liberty, for he has pleasure in the righteous deed; and it is at the same time a holy bondage, for he is obedient to the will of God. But whence comes this liberty to do right to the man who is in bondage and sold under sin, except he be redeemed by Him who has said, "If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed?" And before this redemption is wrought in a man, when he is not yet free to do what is right, how can he talk of the freedom of his will and his good works, except he be inflated by that foolish pride of boasting which the apostle restrains when he says, "By grace are ye saved, through faith."
http://www.romancatholicism.org/predestinationofthesaints.htmlCHAP. 14.--WHY THE FATHER DOES NOT TEACH ALL THAT THEY MAY COME TO CHRIST.
Why, then, does He not teach all that they may come to Christ, except because all whom He teaches, He teaches in mercy, while those whom He teaches not, in judgment He teaches not? Since, "On whom He will He has mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." But He has mercy when He gives good things. He hardens when He recompenses what is deserved. Or if, as some would prefer to distinguish them, those words also are his to whom the apostle says, "Thou sayest then unto me," so that he may be regarded as having said, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardeneth," as well as those which follow,--to wit, "What is it that is still complained of? for who resists His will?" does the apostle answer, "O man, what thou hast said is false?" No; but he says, "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Doth the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump? " and what follows, which you very well know. And yet in a certain sense the Father teaches all men to come to His Son. For it was not in vain that it was written in the prophets, "And they shall all be teachable of God." And when He too had premised this testimony, He added, "Every man, therefore, who has heard of the Father, and has learned, cometh to me." As, therefore, we speak justly when we say concerning any teacher of literature who is alone in a city, He teaches literature here to everybody,--not that all men learn, but that there is none who learns literature there who does not learn from him,--so we justly say, God teaches all men to come to Christ, not because all come, but because none comes in any other way. And why He does not teach all men the apostle explained, as far as he judged that it was to be explained, because, "willing to show His wrath, and to exhibit His power, He endured with much patience the vessels of wrath which were perfected for destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory." Hence it is that the "word of the cross is foolishness to them that perish; but unto them that are saved it is the power of God." God teaches all such to come to Christ, for He wills alI such to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. And if He had willed to teach even those to whom the word of the cross is foolishness to come to Christ beyond all doubt these also would have come. For He neither deceives nor is deceived when He says, "Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me." Away, then, with the thought that any one cometh not, who has heard of the Father and has learned.
CHAP. 16.--WHY THE GIFT OF FAITH IS NOT GIVEN TO ALL.
Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God's gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,--" His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out." For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, "O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.
Hi blessedbe!!blessedbe said:Bill,
Thank you so much for posting those!! It really clarified some things in my mind.
I am in dialogue with a JW right now, who keeps telling me over and over again that God wishes everyone to be saved and it's our own stubborness that keeps us from Him. He totally rejects the idea that God "hardens the hearts of some". In fact, he claims that I am "twisting the word of God" when I claim such. He was trying to use Pharaoh as an example of someone who had many chances to "hear" the truth, and stubbornly would not listen! LOL If there is any0 case for a lack of free-will, Pharaoh is it! Even after me showing him verse after verse claiming that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, he refuses to see, telling me I am misrepresenting God and making Him out to be evil and twisted! Of course this is the same people who claim that you can have perfect understanding of the will of God. It is beyond me how they can claim that we can understand God's ways....
Good Day, Bleesedblessedbe said:Bill,
Thank you so much for posting those!! It really clarified some things in my mind.
I am in dialogue with a JW right now, who keeps telling me over and over again that God wishes everyone to be saved and it's our own stubborness that keeps us from Him. He totally rejects the idea that God "hardens the hearts of some". In fact, he claims that I am "twisting the word of God" when I claim such. He was trying to use Pharaoh as an example of someone who had many chances to "hear" the truth, and stubbornly would not listen! LOL If there is any0 case for a lack of free-will, Pharaoh is it! Even after me showing him verse after verse claiming that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, he refuses to see, telling me I am misrepresenting God and making Him out to be evil and twisted! Of course this is the same people who claim that you can have perfect understanding of the will of God. It is beyond me how they can claim that we can understand God's ways....
cygnusx1 said:Hi blessedbe!!
Hah! that's one of the many benefits of the doctrines of Grace , it keeps the cults at bay
BTW , I hope you didn't have them /him in your house , we are told not to , and you know they are never going to listen even if an angel spoke to them....all you can do is witness the good news and pray for them.
God Bless . Cygnus
BBAS 64 said:Good Day, Bleesed
I am glad you found those usefull. Yes those JW's can be incosistant in their understanding of Scripture does s/he deny that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Peace to u,
Bill
Bleesed, That is quite sad.blessedbe said:Inconsistant is an understatement!! Yes, he denies that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, despite my verses that prove it. He told me that God didn't want Pharaoh to perish any more than the rest of us, and that my saying that Pharaoh was a "pawn" was showing that I didn't understand the nature of God at all, that only the Devil or something evil would stoop so low as to "use" a person like that! Oh well, some people will never, ever accept that God is in total control.
BBAS 64 said:Bleesed, That is quite sad.
Bill
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