What is a "work"?

Caedmon · Feb 2, 2009

mlqurgw said:
A "work" is anything, no matter how small that thing is, that is thought to add to or cause God to favor you. Be it obedience to a set of rules, a decision, the act of faith, or any number of things that folks do that makes them feel as though God looks on them better in some way.

Interesting. Would you classify the decision to "accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" or the praying of the "Sinner's Prayer" as a "work"?

Caedmon · Feb 2, 2009

DeaconDean said:
But...the real question here is, are you simply doing it because it is a requirement of the Law, i.e.; included in the commandments and scriptures, or, are you doing it out of a love for God?

Interesting question. That sounds like the difference between attrition and contrition in Catholic belief. Attrition is repentance out of fear of Hell, perhaps enough, but imperfect. Contrition is repentance out of love for God, and thus true, full repentance.

DeaconDean · Feb 2, 2009

randomguy1 said:
Decon,

My definition of justification is just as yours, to be righteous. And what is it to be righteous? To be just and lawful.

I agree that a man cannot be justified(righteous) by his works alone, I said that before; a man is justified(righteous/lawful) by doing his works AND by faith.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

And once again, what is works?

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Thus following His commandments.

And did I understand you right, that you think the book of James should be thrown out of the Bible?

Brother, its D-e-a-c-o-n, not decon. Decon is a brand of insecticide.

You said that to be justified one had to not only have faith, but works as well. Here I quote you:

one must be justified by works and by faith

And you use the book of James as proof.

And what did I say:

So I am sorry, but you have a wrong view of "Justification" from a Baptist standpoint.

And I'll even go further to say you have a wrong view of "justification" period.

Justification is an act of God whereby the sinner is said to be "not guilty" and declared "righteous".

Again, let me quote Boyce:

I. It is a Judicial Act of God.

That God is its author is emphatically declared by Paul in Rom. 8:33; "It is God that justifieth." As he is the lawgiver and judge so must he also be the justifier.

The act is not one of sovereignty, as is election, because he does not justify merely of good pleasure, but because the demands of the law have been met. Yet his act is free, and of grace, because it is of his own choice that he accepts a substitute, and because Christ and his meritorious work have been graciously secured and given by God himself. See Rom. 3:24.

The usage of other words in connection with justification shows it to be a forensic act. The term "righteousness," dikaiosune, which, like "righteous," dikaios, is used in connection with personal righteousness, as of God in Acts 17:31, and of Christ "the Faithful and True," Rev. 19:11, and of the martyrs in Heb. 11:33, and of human obedience to the law in Rom. 10:3, 5; Phil. 3:6, 9, is, in connection with God's justification of sinners, applied, though chiefly by the Apostle Paul, to "the righteousness which God bestows or accepts," and which is imputed to the sinner or reckoned to his account.

Justification, as you put it, depends not on Christ's righteousness imputed to us, but on our faith and works.

The Apostle Paul plainly tells us that if it was by work, then it isn't by grace, and if it is by grace, then it isn't a work:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -Rom. 11:6 (KJV)

The way you put it:

one must be justified by works and by faith

You prove Paul's words here:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." -Rom. 4:4 (KJV)

And again, let me repeat what the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says about "dikaiow":

It implies the justification of the ungodly who believe on the basis of the justifying action of God in the death and resurrection of Christ. To be sure, the dikaiousqai is an act of grace rather than of retribution according to works. Yet this act of grace in the cross can be called forensic because in the "ilasthrion" judgment is executed on all sin in the Substitute. This dikaioun is the judical acquittal which takes place in the saving present. It is neither exclusively objectively in the cross nor exclusively subjective in experience. It has rather the objectively of relationship, enacted at the cross and apprehended in faith (dikaiosunh). Thus dikaiwqhnai in Gal. 2:16, "to become a righteous man in the eyes of God," the essence of justification being that God helps the sinner to the position and status of one who is righteous in His eyes. this interpretation is valid, though it should be emphasized that the new postition and staus are the result of judical pronouncement.

And yet, you would have us to believe that it is faith and works that justifies us.

You are justified by faith in the life, work, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not of:

by works and by faith

And, again, you have a misunderstanding of the book of James.

Paul and James do not contridict each other as you would have us to believe. Romans and James are not contridictory, they are complimentary. Paul addresses those who say they have works with out faith (legalizers), and James addresses those who say they have faith without works. (Judaizers)

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Source

C.K. Moser sums it up in this manner:

"If a man must still work for salvation we have in Christ an atonement that does not atone."

If your correct, then we have in James the Apostle, a person who is teaching faith plus works in order to be saved. And I quote you:

one must be justified by works and by faith

Here you are linking James as saying that it is: faith plus works that equals justification. Here, you make it sound also that James is teaching a works based salvation. Here, you make it sound as though James is saying that works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

So, what works must I do, added to my faith, that justifies me according to James?

Should I give $1 million dollars to charity?

Should I go work at the homeless shelter?

And if asked why I do this, do I look them in the eye and say well, according to the book of James, I have to do this (faith plus works) in order to be justified in the sight of God?

I have Christ's righteousness imputed to me, therefore I am already righteous by virtue of Christ.

I have been justified by Christ in the sight of God.

in Luke chapter 7, Jesus goes to a Pharisees house to eat. While there, we have this account:

"And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." -Lk. 7:36-50 (KJV)

I certainly am no die hard Bible scholar. But I can read for myself.

I only bring this out because this bears importance here.

What saved this woman, was it her faith or her work?

If you say work, then you are wrong. For it is certain we can do no work that would earn us merit before God.

If you say faith, then the teachings of James is proven wrong and you have to admit you are wrong also.

Show me in this text, where Jesus told her to go and have faith plus works in order to be saved.

Here is another one for you to chew on.

While in Jericho, we are told this little diddy:

"And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging: And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant. And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by. And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me. And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him, Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." -Lk. 18:35-42 (KJV)

In this passage, what saved this man and gave him his sight back?

Was it faith plus works, or was it faith alone in Jesus Christ?

In fact, doesn't dispise the idea of works righteousness? (cf. Mt 23)

Are we obedient in order to be saved or becase we are saved? In fact, doesn't the Bible teach that people are obedient because God has already saved them? (cf 2 Cor. 9:8; James 2:26; 1 Jn. 3:9; 4:7; 5:18)

Jesus never taught the way to eternal life was faith plus works.

Did not in fact Jesus say:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." -Jn. 6:29 (KJV)

Does the text say: This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent and do good works?

Does John 3:16 read: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and does good works should not perish, but have everlasting life."?

Did Jesus say:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, and does good works hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."?

Did Jesus say:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me and does good works hath everlasting life."?

Is the message of the New Testament simply that one legal system replaced another? Are we reconciled to God by what we do or by what God did to present us holy in His sight?

Is not faith very much alive before good works are performed, and not because of good works? Christains in the historic orthodox faith thus believe that we are saved by grace through faith and strongly agree that a faith without works is dead; that is, true saving faith will be accompanied by works. Christians also believe that faith before it has a chance to work is a saving faith also, the prime example is the thief on the cross.

If grace is a free gift (Rom. 5:15-16,18; 6:23), if it is unmerited favor - then God does not require any work in order to be justified!

The Bible clearly teaches over and over again that we are saved by faith and specifically not by our works. (Rom. 1-9; Gal. 1-3; Eph. 2; Titus 3, etc)

Yet, here again, you say you are justified to God by faith plus works.

And here again, I must repeat myself:

What James does teach is that those who say they have faith, and no works as evidence of that faith, then their faith is suspect.

If I am declared "righteous" by God by faith plus works as you espouse, and as you claim James says, then Jesus died in vain. All I need is to believe that there is a God and do good works, and I am justified in God's sight.

There is a good lesson against this sort of teaching in the gospels:

"And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich." -Lk. 18:18-23 (KJV)

Here was a person who evidently obeyed the commandments, and believed in God, but did his faith and works justify him?

Here is another one on justification:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." -Lk. 18:10-14 (KJV)

Tell me, what work did this publican do that justified him?

And did I understand you right, that you think the book of James should be thrown out of the Bible?

If it does teach that a person is justified in the sight of God based on works rather than on the imputed righteousness of Christ to us, then yes.

Rip it out of the Bible! On this point, I agree with Martin Luther!

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Feb 2, 2009

Also, one other question randomguy1.

To which, if any, denomination are you a part of?

Look at the Baptist Confessions of Faith, they all teach we are justified by faith and not of works.

Chapter 11

Of Justification

Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,1 not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons, as righteous;2 not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;3 not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness, but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death, for their whole and sole righteousness;4 they receiving, and resting on Him, and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves: it is the gift of God.5

Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:6 yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.7

Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did by the sacrifice of Himself, in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf;8 yet, inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,9 their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.10

God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect,11 and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;12 nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in due time actually apply Christ unto them.13

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;14 and although they can never fall from the state of justification,15 yet they may by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure;16 and in that condition, they have not usually the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.17

The justification of believers under the Old Testament, was in all these respects one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.18

Footnotes:

1. Ro 3:24; 8:30.
2. Ro 4:5-8; Eph 1:7.
3. 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19.
4. Php 3:8-9; Eph 2:8-10.
5. Jn 1:12; Ro 5:17.
6. Ro 3:28.
7. Gal 5:6; Jas 2:17,22,26.
8. Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:18-19; Isa 53:5-6.
9. Ro 8:32; 2Co 5:21.
10. Ro 3:26; Eph 1:6-7; 2:7.
11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25.
12. Ro 4:25.
13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.
14. Mt 6:12; 1Jn 1:7,9.
15. Jn 10:28.
16. Ps 89:31-33.
17. Ps 32:5; Ps 51:1-19; Mt 26:75.
18. Gal 3:9; Ro 4:22-24.

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742

We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of his grace.

1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith, A Declaration of the Faith and Practice of the Church of Christ at
Horsely-down,under the Pastoral Care of Mr. John Gill

We believe good works are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, are evidences of a gracious state, and that it is the duty of all believers to perform them from a principle of love.

1806 Mississippi Baptist Association Articles of Faith

Of Justification We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ (26) secures to such as believe in him is Justification (27); that Justification includes the pardon of sin (28), and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness (29); that it is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood (30); by virtue of which faith his perfect righteousness is freely imputed to us of God (31); that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God, and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity (32).

26. John 1:16; Eph. 3:8
27. Acts 13:39; Isa. 3:11-12; Rom. 8:1
28. Rom. 5:9; Zech. 13:1; Matt. 9:6; Acts 10:43
29. Rom. 5:17; Titus 3:5-6; 1 Pet. 3:7; 1 John 2:25; Rom. 5:21
30. Rom. 4:4-5; 5:21; 6:28; Phil. 3:7-9
31. Rom. 5:19; 3:24-26; 4:23-25; 1 John 2:12
32. Rom. 5:1-3, 11; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Matt. 6:33; 1 Tim. 4:8

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833

CHAPTER XII
Justification and Sanctification
1. Justification. Personal justification implies that the person justified has been guilty before God; and, in consideration of the atonement of Christ, accepted by faith, the sinner is pardoned and absolved from the guilt of sin, and restored to the divine favor. Christ's atonement is the foundation of the sinner's redemption, yet, without repentance and faith, it can never give him justification and peace with God.

Treatise of the Faith and Practices of the Free Will Baptists (circa 1834 and 1948)

XI. JUSTIFICATION

Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

Abstract of Principles, 1858

XI. OF JUSTIFICATION
We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in Him is Justification; (a) that Justification includes the pardon of sin, and the gift of eternal life on principles of righteousness; (b) that it is bestowed not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done; but solely through faith in the Redeemers blood, His righteousness is imputed unto us.

ARTICLES OF FAITH PUT FORTH BY THE BAPTIST BIBLE UNION OF AMERICA, 1923

5. JUSTIFICATION
Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of righteousness of all sinners who believe in Christ. This blessing is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but through the redemption that is in and through Jesus Christ. It brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God, and secures every other needed blessing.

1925 Baptist Faith and Message Statement

There are two more, but take my word for it, they say the same thing.

We are justified by faith and not by works as James and you espouse.

And to teach otherwise is against the rules.

God Bless

Till all are one.

mlqurgw · Feb 2, 2009

Caedmon said:
Interesting. Would you classify the decision to "accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" or the praying of the "Sinner's Prayer" as a "work"?

Yes I would. Faith in Christ doesn't come by a decision to accept Jesus but by the grace of God regenerating the heart. I do not believe any are saved by saying the "sinner's prayer". Salvation doesn't come by reciting a prayer that someone gives you to say but by faith in Christ.

eldermike · Feb 2, 2009

In simple words, salvation is not a process, it's a birth date. Anything done in the Name of Jesus after you are born again has zero to do with salvation. That would include baptism, prayers or anything else under the sun.
Works are a sign of salvation, not a means to it.

It's the cart/horse thing that gets us all worked up.

DeaconDean · Feb 2, 2009

I am sorry, but I will stand up against anybody who teaches a "works" based salvation.

2 times in the New Testament we are told:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -Rom. 1:16 (KJV)

And:

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)

Believing "the Gospel of Christ" I am saved, and I am "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" and not by works.

Anybody who tells you that you have to "work" to be justified in the sight of God is teaching wrongly and only want to add mans works to God's plan of salvation.

I'm sorry, but I will stand against this with every fiber of my being.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Feb 2, 2009

Caedmon said:
Attrition is repentance out of fear of Hell, perhaps enough, but imperfect. Contrition is repentance out of love for God, and thus true, full repentance.

Isn't repentance both, and both true?

We repent because are sinfull, have sinned and deserving of eternal damnation, and repentant because we also realize that God loved us enough to take our place when we deserved death and died in our place.

Of Repentance and Faith We believe that Repentance and Faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God (42); whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ (43), we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy (44); at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour (45).

42. Mark 1:15; Acts 11:18; Eph. 2:8; 1 John 5:1
43. John 16:8; Acts 2:37-38; 16:30-31
44. Luke 18:13; 15:18-21; James 4:7-10; 2 Cor. 7:11; Rom. 10:12-13; Psa. 51
45. Rom. 10:9-11; Acts 3:22-23: Heb. 4:14; Psa. 2:6; Heb. 1:8; 8:25; 2 Tim. 1:12

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833

The way you spelled things out, you seem to make one form of repentance true and genuine and leading to eternal life, while the other isn't.

If a person comes to the altar, under conviction that they are a sinner, standing condemned to hell because they are a sinner, and they repent of their sins, ask Jesus to be the Lord and Savior of their life, are they not saved?

If I'm wrong, please explain the difference. Why one is imperfect, and the other isn't.

God Bless

Till all are one.

wherethebiblespeaks · Feb 3, 2009

Dean,

Not trying to be disrespectful but I've noticed from many of your posts that you like to give a lot of information from Joe Schmo's commentary. Have you ever thought that the people you're quoting might be wrong?

-~Truth_N_Trust~- · Feb 3, 2009

deacondean said:
Whatever our works are, they are evidence of our faith.

This is the crux, like eldermike said already, a Christian's righteousness (expressed through works) is an outworking of the Holy Spirit within. The Holy Spirit within is a seal of our Salvation through Jesus Christ by the Grace of God. How do we get the Holy Spirit? Not by doing works in the flesh - no matter how righteous they look (prayers, baptism etc.) - they are as filthy rags. Only by Grace through Faith, a gift of God.

randomguy1 · Feb 3, 2009

I think the issue here is what we define as faith and works. I must not have the Baptist ideology of faith and works so let me define them by scripture.

First, let's start back in James. Where is clearly states that faith and works make perfect, as James says about Abraham.

Jame 2:22 (NKJV) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

What did Abraham do? He offered up his son Issac because God told him to do so.

Now, what is works?

John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Him whom He sent is Jesus. What does Jesus tell us to do?

1Joh 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1Joh 4:21 (NKJV) And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God [must] love his brother also.

Now let's define faith.

Pretty much all of Hebrews 11 deals with faith. How does Hebrews define faith?

Hebr 11:1 (NKJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Let's look at some examples.

Hebr 11:4 (NKJV) By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Hebr 11:7 (NKJV) By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebr 11:17 (NKJV) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
19 concluding that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

And the list goes on, but by these examples can we see that faith is actually obedience or doing what God has commanded us to do? Isn't that what works are also? Yes, they are pretty much the same thing. Faith, or obedience, is doing what God has told us to do. What is works? "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Believing in Him (Jesus) is to keep his commandments.

As James said, faith without works is dead. Why? Because faith and works are the same. By your faith and your works God justifies you, because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.

DeaconDean · Feb 3, 2009

wherethebiblespeaks said:
Dean,

Not trying to be disrespectful but I've noticed from many of your posts that you like to give a lot of information from Joe Schmo's commentary. Have you ever thought that the people you're quoting might be wrong?

Ok, I'll give you that. But, as any serious Bible student would tell you, don't take one single source as the definitive answer.

If you would take the time to look friend, how many sources I used.

I used the The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament because it is one of the best sources for the Greek New Testament.

How many of the Baptist Confessions of Faith did I quote from?

I have a folder at home. from when I was in seminary, that is 4 inches thick from where I studied this topic.

I didn't just pull an article out of the air and use it to support my suppositions.

You have no idea to what lengths I go in study to insure that what I say is true.

I am not one of those who reads the scriptures and then say this is what this means. The Bible expressly forbids this:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -Prov. 3:5 (KJV)

So, why are you debating with me?

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Feb 3, 2009

randomguy1 said:
I think the issue here is what we define as faith and works. I must not have the Baptist ideology of faith and works so let me define them by scripture.

First, let's start back in James. Where is clearly states that faith and works make perfect, as James says about Abraham.

Jame 2:22 (NKJV) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

What did Abraham do? He offered up his son Issac because God told him to do so.

Now, what is works?

John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Him whom He sent is Jesus. What does Jesus tell us to do?

1Joh 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1Joh 4:21 (NKJV) And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God [must] love his brother also.

Now let's define faith.

Pretty much all of Hebrews 11 deals with faith. How does Hebrews define faith?

Hebr 11:1 (NKJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Let's look at some examples.

Hebr 11:4 (NKJV) By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Hebr 11:7 (NKJV) By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebr 11:17 (NKJV) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
19 concluding that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

And the list goes on, but by these examples can we see that faith is actually obedience or doing what God has commanded us to do? Isn't that what works are also? Yes, they are pretty much the same thing. Faith, or obedience, is doing what God has told us to do. What is works? "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Believing in Him (Jesus) is to keep his commandments.

As James said, faith without works is dead. Why? Because faith and works are the same. Your faith and your works justify you to God because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.

Ok, here we go again. Look at your last statement.

Your faith and your works (emphasis mine) justify you to God

There you go again equating works with justification.

Lets look at the Greek text of your point of argument.

"orate oti ex ergwn dikaioutai anqrwpoV kai ouk ek pistewV monon." -Jas. 2:24 (GNT)

"You see then that by works is justified a man, and not by faith only."

Focus on the word: "dikaioutai".

From The New Analytical Greek Lexicon:

"dikaiow" - (Strongs Number 1344 - dik-ah-yo'-o) to make or render right or just; mid. to act with justice, Rev. 22:11; to avouch to be good and true, to vindicate, Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:29, et. al.; to set forth as good and just, Lk. 10:29; 16:15; in NT to hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify, Rom. 3:26, 30; 4:5; 8:30,33, et.al.; pass. to be held accquitted, to be cleared, Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:24; 6:7; to be approved, to stand accepted, Rom. 2:13; 3:20,28, et.al.

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Pub. Company, Peabody, Mass., 01962, "dikaiow", p. 102

In essence, what you have said, and what you are saying that James is saying is that faith plus works will "make (you, the believer) or render right or just" in the sight of God. That faith plus works will "avouch to be good and true, vindicate" you in the sight of God. That faith plus works will "set (you, the believer) forth as good and just" in the sight of God. That faith plus works will hold you the believer "as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify" in the sight of God. That faith plus works will cause you " to be held accquitted, to be cleared" in the sight of God. That faith plus works will cause you "to be approved, to stand accepted" in the sight of God.

That is what you are saying, that is what you are espousing, that is what you are saying James is saying.

Paul said of Abraham:

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:21-22 (KJV)

In Romans 4:22, in the Greek text, we read:

"dio [kai] elogisqh autw eiV dikaiosunhn." -Rom. 4:22 (GNT)

Lordy, Lordy, looky there. Here is a Greek word used that means:

"dikaiosunh" (Strongs Number 1343- dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay) - fair and equitable dealing, justice; Acts 17:31; Heb. 11:33; Rom. 9:28; rectitude, virtue, Lk. 1:75; Eph. 5:9; in NT generosity, alms, 2 Cor. 9:10; v.r.; Mt. 6:1; piety, godliness, Rom. 6:13, et. al.; investiture with the atrribute of righteousness, justification, Rom. 4:11; 10:4; et. al. freq.; a provision or mean for justification, Rom. 1:17; 2 Cor. 3:9, et.al.; an instance of justification, 2 Cor. 5:21

Ibid, "dikaiosunh", p. 102

Paul flatly disputes that you cannot be "justified" (dikaiow) in the sight of God by works:

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:2-3 (KJV)

In the Greek, the same word used in verse 3 for "righteousness" is the same word used for "justify". (Strongs Number 1344)

The word used in verse 3 for "counted" is an accounting term.

"logizomai" to count, calculate; to count, enumerate, Mk. 15:28; Lk. 22:37; to set down as a matter of account, 1 Cor. 13:5; 2 Cor. 3:5; 12:6; to impute, Rom. 4:3; 2 Cor. 5:19; 2 Tim. 4:16, et. al.; to account, Rom. 4:1; 2 Cor. 10:2; Phil. 3:13; to infer,conclude, presume, Rom. 2:3; 3:28; 8:18; 2 Cor. 10:2,7; Heb. 11:19; 1 Pet. 5:12; to think upon, ponder, Phil. 4:8; to reason, Mk. 11:31; 1 Cor 13:11

Ibid, "logizomai", p. 259

In Rom. 5:1 in the Greek, we read:

"dikaiwqenteV oun ek pistewV eirhnhn ecomen proV ton qeon dia tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou, "-Rom. 5:1 (GNT)

In the scriptures, we read:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Oh, my goodness, there is that word again: "dikaiow".

Paul flat out tells us that we have been "justified" by faith in Jesus Christ.

Now if Abraham was "accounted" as righteous, justified by believing, faith, then Rom. 4:24 applies to us as well.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed," -Rom. 4:24 (KJV)

God has looked in His great accouinting book, transfered, credited to, Christ, our sins, and credited to us, Christ's righteousness/justification.

The Bible plainly tells us that it is God who justifies us, not works. (cf. Rom. 8:33)

That God is its author is emphatically declared by Paul in Rom. 8:33; "It is God that justifieth." As he is the lawgiver and judge so must he also be the justifier.

James Petigru Boyce

Justification is attributed, in the Scriptures, to the blood and the obedience of Christ: "Being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."[55] "By the obedience of one, shall many be made righteous."[56] Both his blood and his obedience were necessary to magnify the law, and make it honorable. His blood signifies the endurance of its penalty; and his obedience, the fulfilment of its precepts. On this endurance of the penalty, our deliverance from wrath is based; and on his fulfilment of the precepts, our complete justification before God. Justification, however, could not be complete, without deliverance from the penalty; and it therefore required both the blood and the obedience of Christ; or, in the language of Scripture, "his obedience unto death."
Justification is by faith. On this point, the Scriptures are explicit. "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God."[57] By him all that believe are justified from all things.[58] Faith does not justify, because of its own merit. Other graces co-exist with it in the heart of the believer; as repentance, love, &c. And these have equal claim to merit; and especially love, which is the fulfilling of the law,[59] but faith is selected as the justifying grace; and Paul assigns the reason, "It is of faith, that it might be by grace."[60] In the very exercise of faith, merit is renounced, and the sole reliance is placed on the merit of Christ. Hence faith is opposed to works: "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."[61] In faith, the sinner as ungodly comes to God, who justifies the ungodly,[62] through Christ, who died for the ungodly.[63] He presents no plea, and entertains no hope, founded on personal merit, but relies wholly on the blood and obedience of Christ. Faith is an exercise of the believer's mind; and as such, it is as much a work as repentance or love, and it produces other works: for, "Faith worketh by love."[64] But it is not as a work, or as producing other works, that faith justifies; but as renouncing all personal merit and self-reliance, and receiving salvation as a gift of free grace through Jesus Christ. In justification, righteousness is imputed, accounted, or reckoned. "David describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness."[65] Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness:[66] "For us, also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe."[67]

[55] Rom. v. 9.
[56] Rom. v. 19.
[57] Rom. v. 1.
[58] Acts xiii. 39.
[59] Rom. xiii. 10.
[60] Rom. iv. 16.
[61] Rom. iv. 5.
[62] Rom. iv. 5.
[63] Rom. v. 6.
[64] Gal. v. 6.
[65] Rom. iv. 6.
[66] Rom. iv. 3. [67] Rom. iv. 24.

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, Vol. I, Book 7, Chapter 3, Section 2, Justification.

Source

...the apostle represents the Old Testament Scriptures as teaching that justification is not by works, by showing that they inculcate a different method of obtaining acceptance with God. This they do by the doctrine which they teach concerning the Messiah as a Redeemer from sin. Hence Paul says, that the method of justification without works (not founded upon works) was testified by the law and the prophets; that is, by the whole of the Old Testament. The two methods of acceptance with God, the one by works, the other by a propitiation for sin, are incompatible. And as the ancient Scriptures teach the latter method, they repudiate the former. But they moreover, in express terms, assert, that "the just shall live by faith." And the law knows nothing of faith; its language is, "The man that doeth them shall live in them" (Gal. 3/11,12). The law knows nothing of anything but obedience as the ground of acceptance. If the Scriptures say we are accepted through faith, they thereby say that we are not accepted on the ground of obedience.
Again: the examples of justification given in the Old Testament, show that it was not by works. The apostle appeals particularly to the case of Abraham, and asks, whether he attained justification by works; and answers, "No, for if he were justified by works he had whereof to glory; but he had no ground of glorying before God, and therefore he was not justified by works." And the Scriptures expressly assert, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4.3). His acceptance, therefore, was by faith, and not by works.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Justification,

Source

The Nature and Elements of Justification, Justification may be defined as that legal act of God by which He declares the sinner righteous on the basis of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is not an act or process of renewal, such as regeneration, conversion, or sanctification, and does not affect the condition but the-state of the sinner. It differs from sanctification in several particulars. Justification takes place outside of the sinner in the tribunal of God, removes the guilt of sin, and is an act which is complete at once and for all time; while sanctification takes place in man, removes the pollution of sin, and is a continuous and lifelong process. We distinguish two elements in justification, namely: (a) The forgiveness of sins on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The pardon granted applies to all sins, past, present, and future, and therefore does not admit of repetition, Ps. 103: 12; Isa. 44:22; Rom. 5:21; 8:1, 32-34; Heb. 10:14. This does not mean that we need no more pray for forgiveness, for the consciousness of guilt remains, creates a feeling of separation, and makes it necessary to seek repeatedly the comforting assurance of forgiveness, Ps. 25:7; 32:5; 51:1; Matt. 6:12; Jas. 5:15; I John 1:9. (b) The adoption as children of God. In justification God adopts believers as His children, that is, places them in the position of children and gives them all the rights of children, including the right to an eternal inheritance, Rom. 8:17; I Pet. 1:4. This legal sonship of believers should be distinguished from their moral sonship through regeneration and sanctification. Both are indicated in the following passages: John 1:12, 13; Rom. 8:15, 16; Gal. 4:5, 6.

Louis Berkhof, Summary of Christian Doctrine, Part V: The Doctrine of the Application of the Work of Redemption, Chapter XXI: Justification

Source

I could go on and on, but the sum of the matter is, that once we believe, we are declared righteous/justified in the sight of God by way of Christ's imputed righteousness to us.

What you are teaching, is that by faith in God, obeying His commandments, we can be declared righteous, we can be justified in the sight of God. That is what you are saying:

faith is actually obedience or doing what God has commanded us to do...Faith, or obedience, is doing what God has told us to do...By your faith and your works God justifies you, because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.

Just as you posted, you here cut out the work of Christ. As I point out in Lk. 18, there was one who had faith in God, and obeyed the commandments, and yet was lacking. Justification does not come by faith and works.

Again, in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

dikaioo - dervives from dikaios, -on, and means "to make righteous" or neuter, "to establish as right." "to validate," (oppsite akuroun, to invalidate," etc.).

In the LXX, dikaioun is a forensic term. Yet it does not have a predominate negative connotation ("to condemn") as in the Greek, but is constantly used in the postive sense of "to pronounce righteous," "to justify," "to vindicate." The forensic element is even stronger in the LXX than in the Masoretic text. Thus in Isa. 45:25 in the Mas., means that they find righteousness with Yahweh, whereas the LXX: "apo kuriou dikaioqhsoutai" means that they are declared righteous by Him.

When used in the OT active, in the hiph., to declare someone righteous, to acquit someone, to secure justice for him. According to the legal custom in Israel, this dikaioun may not apply for the asebhs: Ex. 23:7; Isa. 5:23; Sir. 10:29; 42:2. Only the dikaios may be declared righteous; Deut. 25:1; 3 Bas. 8:32 (cf. materially Prov. 17:15)

When used in the pi., "to prove to be innocent or righteous. (Jer. 3:11); Ez. 16:51: "thou hast justified thy sisters" It is often used by the Rabbis for divine acquital: 1. Pesikt. r., 40 (169a); 2. bErub., 19a; 3. Midr., Ps. 143 (266b); 4. Tg. Ps. 51:6. In the Psalms of Solomon, the article is never related to man in the sense of "to justify someone," "to declare him righteous": the dikaioun which man pronounces is plainly referred to God.

Even in your quoting from Hebrews, you missed a key verse.

"oi dia pistewV kathgwnisanto basileiaV, eirgasanto dikaiosunhn, epetucon epaggeliwn, efraxan stomata leontwn," -Heb. 11:33 (GNT)

"Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions." -Heb. 11:33 (KJV)

Oh look, there is that word again "dikaiosunh".

What was one of the meanings of this word?

investiture with the atrribute of righteousness, justification,

So this verse very well could read:

Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought justification, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

And what was it that wrought righteousness/justification?

"Faith" not faith plus works, but faith!

As long as you keep posting that by faith and works one is justified in the sight of God, I'll keep opposing you.

You are wrong. Justification is a one time act. It is acquired by faith in Jesus Christ. It is not, and cannot be acquired by works.

Romans 5:19 reads as:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

But it could very well mean:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be justified."

The Greek word used here, meaning is exactly the same, righteous/justified.

We are made righteous/justifed by faith in Jesus Christ. Not by any work. Period.

Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Rom 3:24-26; 4:25; 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Rom 5:1), His Spirit (Rom 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Rom 1:18-3:28).

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith, is a doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Eastern Christianity, and most Restorationists in Christianity.
The doctrine of sola fide or "faith alone" asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith or belief alone, to the exclusion of all human efforts or works.

The Bible teaches we are justified by faith. (cf. post #23 of this thread) The Baptist confessions teach we are justified by faith. (cf. Post #24 of this thread) I teach we are justified by faith. (cf. all my posts)

This truth that God justifies need to be underlined. We do not justify ourselves. Justification is not our apology nor is it the effect in us of a process of self-excusation. It is not even our confession nor the good feeling that may be induced in us by confession. Justification is not any religious exercise in which we engage however noble and good that religious exercise may be. If we are to understand and appropriate its grace we must turn our thoughts to the action of God in justifying the ungodly. At no point is the free grace of God more manifest than in his justifying act being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24).

-John Murray Redemption Accomplished and Applied (pg. 118)

Justification is God's act of remitting the sins of guilty men, and accounting them righteous, freely, by his grace, through faith in Christ, on the grounds, not of their own works, but of the representative lawkeeping and redemptive blood-shedding of the Lord Jesus Christ on their behalf.

-J.I. Packer

The real reason why the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone is unpopular is that it is grievously wounding to our pride.

-John R.W. Stott

Justification in its essence is a legal or forensic term, a term that belongs to the realm of the Law Court. It means "to declare just," and "to declare righteous." It is the opposite ofcondemnation. The Christian has moved from a state of "condemnation" to one of "justification." For this reason the Apostle starts this 8th chapter by saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." He is taking up again the argument he had left off at the end of chapter 5, where he had been working out some of the consequences of justification. His constant emphasis concerning this is that it is something which is done by God, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified." In other words we do not justify ourselves before God. God justifies us, and He does it--and this is the argument of the first four chapters--entirely apart from us and our works. It is not the result of any merit that is in us. One verse that states this clearly and beyond any doubt is the 5th verse in the 4th chapter: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." God justifies the "ungodly"; not the "righteous," but the "ungodly."

He argues the same point in chapter 5, verses 6-8: "When we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." It is the action of God, and exclusively the action of God. This is the central argument of this Epistle. It is the declaration made by God concerning those who believe in Christ. We are justified in Christ, but through faith and belief. The belief is the instrument.

Let us emphasize again certain other aspects of this doctrine. Justification does not merely mean forgiveness. It includes forgiveness, but it is much bigger than forgiveness. It means in addition that God declares us to be entirely guiltless; He regards us as if we had never sinned at all. He pronounces us to be just and to be righteous. In doing so He is answering any declaration that the Law may make with respect to us. It is the judge upon the bench not merely saying that the prisoner at the Bar is forgiven, but that he pronounces him to be a just and righteous person.

In justifying us God tells us that He has taken our sins and our guilt, and has "imputed" them to, "put them to the account of," the Lord Jesus Christ and punished them in Him. He announces also that, having done that, He now puts to our account, or "imputes" to us, the perfect righteousness of His own dear Son. The Lord Jesus Christ obeyed the Law perfectly; He never broke it in any respect. He gave a full and a perfect satisfaction to all its demands. That full obedience constitutes His righteousness. What God does is to put to our account, to put upon us, the righteousness of Jesus Christ. In declaring us to be justified, God proclaims that He now looks on us, not as we are, but as clothed with the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

D. Martin Lloyd-Jones

Source

Whatever works we do, give evidence of faith. They are the effect of, nor the cause of justification.

So as long as you keeping saying that one is justified by faith plus works, I'll keep on opposing you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Feb 4, 2009

Also, I need to repeat myself:

DeaconDean said:
Also, one other question randomguy1.

To which, if any, denomination are you a part of?

Please answer this question. Because if you are not of the Reformed faith, a Reformed Baptist, or a Baptist in general, you cannot be debating here. You cannot be debating Baptist doctrine.

So please, what denomination, if any, do you belong to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

randomguy1 · Feb 4, 2009

I'll admit that the way I worded first was wrong and I went back and fixed it.

By your faith and your works God justifies you, because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.
I will agree that God is the only one who can justify you.

Roma 8:30 (NKJV) Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And to answer your question, I was raised a southern baptist.

DeaconDean · Feb 4, 2009

randomguy1 said:
I'll admit that the way I worded first was wrong and I went back and fixed it.

By your faith and your works God justifies you, because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.
I will agree that God is the only one who can justify you.

Roma 8:30 (NKJV) Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And to answer your question, I was raised a southern baptist.

Again, you still have it wrong.

Works in no way shape or from "justify" you.

Not works alone. Not works combined with faith.

Romans 8:30, the very verse you quoted contridicts you.

Faith will produce works, but faith plus works absolutely will not justify you in the sight of God.

Works are evidence of faith.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." -Mt. 7:16 (KJV)

How many times must I repeat myself?

DeaconDean said:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." -Lk. 18:10-14 (KJV)

Tell me, what work did this publican do that justified him?

And you fixed nothing. You still espouse:

By your faith and your works God justifies you

Faith plus works equals justification. All you did was word it another way.

God does not justify you based on you having faith and doing good works. When you are regenerated, given faith and repent, you are saved, redeemed, have Christ's righteousness inputed to you and you are justified in the sight of God.

Justification is not a progressive act.

Let me repeat:

Justification in its essence is a legal or forensic term, a term that belongs to the realm of the Law Court. It means "to declare just," and "to declare righteous." It is the opposite ofcondemnation. The Christian has moved from a state of "condemnation" to one of "justification." For this reason the Apostle starts this 8th chapter by saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." He is taking up again the argument he had left off at the end of chapter 5, where he had been working out some of the consequences of justification. His constant emphasis concerning this is that it is something which is done by God, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified." In other words we do not justify ourselves before God. God justifies us, and He does it--and this is the argument of the first four chapters--entirely apart from us and our works. It is not the result of any merit that is in us. One verse that states this clearly and beyond any doubt is the 5th verse in the 4th chapter: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." God justifies the "ungodly"; not the "righteous," but the "ungodly."

D. Martin Lloyd-Jones

Source

Here again, let me repeat myself:

Justification is by faith. On this point, the Scriptures are explicit. "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God." By him all that believe are justified from all things...In the very exercise of faith, merit is renounced, and the sole reliance is placed on the merit of Christ. Hence faith is opposed to works: "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."..He presents no plea, and entertains no hope, founded on personal merit, but relies wholly on the blood and obedience of Christ. Faith is an exercise of the believer's mind; and as such, it is as much a work as repentance or love, and it produces other works: for, "Faith worketh by love." But it is not as a work, or as producing other works, that faith justifies; but as renouncing all personal merit and self-reliance, and receiving salvation as a gift of free grace through Jesus Christ. In justification, righteousness is imputed, accounted, or reckoned.

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, Vol. I, Book 7, Chapter 3, Section 2, Justification.

...the apostle represents the Old Testament Scriptures as teaching that justification is not by works, by showing that they inculcate a different method of obtaining acceptance with God. This they do by the doctrine which they teach concerning the Messiah as a Redeemer from sin. Hence Paul says, that the method of justification without works (not founded upon works) was testified by the law and the prophets; that is, by the whole of the Old Testament. The two methods of acceptance with God, the one by works, the other by a propitiation for sin, are incompatible. And as the ancient Scriptures teach the latter method, they repudiate the former. But they moreover, in express terms, assert, that "the just shall live by faith." And the law knows nothing of faith;

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Justification

Repeat:

The Nature and Elements of Justification, Justification may be defined as that legal act of God by which He declares the sinner righteous on the basis of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is not an act or process of renewal, such as regeneration, conversion, or sanctification, and does not affect the condition but the-state of the sinner. It differs from sanctification in several particulars. Justification takes place outside of the sinner in the tribunal of God, removes the guilt of sin, and is an act which is complete at once and for all time; while sanctification takes place in man, removes the pollution of sin, and is a continuous and lifelong process.

Louis Berkhof, Summary of Christian Doctrine, Part V: The Doctrine of the Application of the Work of Redemption, Chapter XXI: Justification

And again, I repeat:

. It is a Judicial Act of God

That God is its author is emphatically declared by Paul in Rom. 8:33; "It is God that justifieth." As he is the lawgiver and judge so must he also be the justifier.

The act is not one of sovereignty, as is election, because he does not justify merely of good pleasure, but because the demands of the law have been met. Yet his act is free, and of grace, because it is of his own choice that he accepts a substitute, and because Christ and his meritorious work have been graciously secured and given by God himself. See Rom. 3:24.

The usage of other words in connection with justification shows it to be a forensic act. The term "righteousness," dikaiosune, which, like "righteous," dikaios, is used in connection with personal righteousness, as of God in Acts 17:31, and of Christ "the Faithful and True," Rev. 19:11, and of the martyrs in Heb. 11:33, and of human obedience to the law in Rom. 10:3, 5; Phil. 3:6, 9, is, in connection with God's justification of sinners, applied, though chiefly by the Apostle Paul, to "the righteousness which God bestows or accepts," and which is imputed to the sinner or reckoned to his account.

Another term, dikaiosis, signifies "the act or process of declaring righteous," viz., justification.

The word dikaioma, which means "that which is declared righteous," and hence a statute or command, as something which the law of God declares to be a righteous requirement, is used in connection with justification for "the deed by which one declares another righteous, and is partially equivalent to dikaiosis."

The principal word which is used for expressing the nature of God's action in justification is dikaioo, "to justify," which means everywhere "to declare righteous," "to regard and represent as righteous," and not "to make righteous" in the sense of conferring personal righteousness.

This usage of terms shows plainly that justification is a judicial act of God, in which he does not confer holiness, but only declares the relation occupied to the law by the one who is in Christ.

II. The Ground of this Justification

It is manifest from what has already been said that the justification of the sinner must depend on something not personally his own. The Scriptures teach that it is due not to his own good works but to the meritorious work of Christ which is imputed to him, or put to his account.

1. They teach us negatively that it is not due to his own good works.

(1.) They expressly deny that justification can be by the works of the law. Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:11; Eph. 2:9.

(2.) They assert that, could it thus have been attained, Christ's death has been useless. Gal. 2:21; 5:4.

(3.) Sinfulness is declared to be the condition of every man, which excludes the possibility of works untainted by sin. Rom. 3:10.

(4.) The law is said to demand such complete obedience that "whosoever shall keep the whole law and stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all." James 2:10.

(5.) We are told that "if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily, righteousness would have been of the law." Gal. 3:21.

(6.) It is likewise stated as necessary to the certainty of attaining salvation that "it is of faith that it may be according to grace." Rom. 4:16.

These statements show that, not only are men not saved by works alone, but not even by works combined with grace. (emphasis here mine) Justification cannot arise, therefore, from the good works of men. Not even has its condition been so modified that a partial obedience can be accepted, whether this stands alone or is supplemented by, or is supplementary to the merits of Christ. Something entirely outside of man must constitute the basis of justification.

2. The word of God declares this outside something to be the meritorious work of Christ.

(1.) In general

(a) By declaring that the righteousness of God is connected with our relations to, or belief in Christ. Rom. 3:22, 26; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30.

(b) By stating that redemption is in Christ Jesus. Rom. 3:24.

(c) By setting him forth as the only foundation of salvation.

(d) By asserting salvation to be found only in Christ. Acts 4:12.

(e) By asserting a definite relation between our sin and Christ, and his righteousness and ourselves. 2 Cor. 5:21.

2. More specifically by connecting the salvation and justification of man with Christ's merits.

This may be shown.

(a) In connection with his sufferings, or what is usually called his passive obedience.

1. Christ is presented as "the Lamb of God," John 1:29, in evident allusion to the sacrificial offerings of the olden days, and Paul speaks of him as one "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by his blood." Rom. 3:25.

2. He is presented as one who has died for us. Rom. 5:6, 8; 8:34; 14:15; 1 Cor. 8:11; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15; 1 Thess. 5:10; and specifically as having died for our sins. 1 Cor. 15:3.

3. We are said to be justified by his blood (Rom. 5:9), and reconciled by his death (Rom. 5:10), and by his cross (Eph. 2:16).

(b) Our justification is due also to the active obedience of Christ, and not to passive obedience only.

1. Righteousness involves character, conduct and action, even more than suffering endured as penalty. The sinlessness of Christ is therefore plainly taught, and especially in connection with imputation. 2 Cor. 5:21.

2. The gracious salvation he brings is said to establish the law.

3. He assures us, that he came to fulfil the law. Matt. 5:17.

4. The obedience of Christ is not only contrasted with the disobedience of Adam, but is declared to be the means by which many shall be made righteous. Rom. 5:19.

It thus appears, that the ground of justification is the whole meritorious work of Christ. Not his sufferings and death only, but his obedience to, and conformity with the divine law are involved in the justification, which is attained by the believer.

James Petigru Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, Chapter XXXV, Justification.

Each of these plainly show that it is not faith plus works.

It is not:

one must be justified by works and by faith.

It is not:

a man is justified(righteous/lawful) by doing his works AND by faith.

And it is not:

By your faith and your works God justifies you

It is by faith in Jesus Christ, that we are justified.

Chapter 11 , Of Justification

Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,1 not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons, as righteous;2 not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;3 not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness, but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death, for their whole and sole righteousness;4 they receiving, and resting on Him, and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves: it is the gift of God.5

Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:6 yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.7

Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did by the sacrifice of Himself, in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf;8 yet, inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,9 their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.10

God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect,11 and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;12 nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in due time actually apply Christ unto them.13

God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;14 and although they can never fall from the state of justification,15 yet they may by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure;16 and in that condition, they have not usually the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.17

The justification of believers under the Old Testament, was in all these respects one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.18

Footnotes:

1. Ro 3:24; 8:30.
2. Ro 4:5-8; Eph 1:7.
3. 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19.
4. Php 3:8-9; Eph 2:8-10.

5. Jn 1:12; Ro 5:17.

6. Ro 3:28.

7. Gal 5:6; Jas 2:17,22,26.

8. Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:18-19; Isa 53:5-6.
9. Ro 8:32; 2Co 5:21.
10. Ro 3:26; Eph 1:6-7; 2:7.
11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25.
12. Ro 4:25.
13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.
14. Mt 6:12; 1Jn 1:7,9.
15. Jn 10:28.
16. Ps 89:31-33.
17. Ps 32:5; Ps 51:1-19; Mt 26:75.
18. Gal 3:9; Ro 4:22-24.

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742

We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of his grace.

1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith, A Declaration of the Faith and Practice of the Church of Christ at Horsely-down,under the Pastoral Care of Mr. John Gill

We believe good works are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, are evidences of a gracious state, and that it is the duty of all believers to perform them from a principle of love.

1806 Mississippi Baptist Association Articles of Faith

Of Justification We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ (26) secures to such as believe in him is Justification (27); that Justification includes the pardon of sin (28), and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness (29); that it is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood (30); by virtue of which faith his perfect righteousness is freely imputed to us of God (31); that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God, and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity (32).

26. John 1:16; Eph. 3:8
27. Acts 13:39; Isa. 3:11-12; Rom. 8:1
28. Rom. 5:9; Zech. 13:1; Matt. 9:6; Acts 10:43
29. Rom. 5:17; Titus 3:5-6; 1 Pet. 3:7; 1 John 2:25; Rom. 5:21
30. Rom. 4:4-5; 5:21; 6:28; Phil. 3:7-9

31. Rom. 5:19; 3:24-26; 4:23-25; 1 John 2:12

32. Rom. 5:1-3, 11; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Matt. 6:33; 1 Tim. 4:8

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833

CHAPTER XII , Justification and Sanctification

1. Justification. Personal justification implies that the person justified has been guilty before God; and, in consideration of the atonement of Christ, accepted by faith, the sinner is pardoned and absolved from the guilt of sin, and restored to the divine favor. Christ's atonement is the foundation of the sinner's redemption, yet, without repentance and faith, it can never give him justification and peace with God.

Treatise of the Faith and Practices of the Free Will Baptists (circa 1834 and 1948)

XI. JUSTIFICATION

Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

Abstract of Principles, 1858

XI. OF JUSTIFICATION

We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in Him is Justification; (a) that Justification includes the pardon of sin, and the gift of eternal life on principles of righteousness; (b) that it is bestowed not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done; but solely through faith in the Redeemer’s blood, His righteousness is imputed unto us.

ARTICLES OF FAITH PUT FORTH BY THE BAPTIST BIBLE UNION OF AMERICA, 1923

5. JUSTIFICATION

Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of righteousness of all sinners who believe in Christ. This blessing is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but through the redemption that is in and through Jesus Christ. It brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God, and secures every other needed blessing.

1925 Baptist Faith and Message Statement

Justification does not come by way of:

randomguy1 said:
works and by faith

Justification does not come:

randomguy1 said:
by doing his works AND by faith

Justification does not come:

randomguy1 said:
By your faith and your works God justifies you

I have tried teching you what the bible teaches. I have enlisted many commentators. I have used Systematic Theology. I have used our own Confessions of Faith. I have even went so far as to spell it out to you in the Greek, and yet, you keep on insisting that justification is in part by some work we do.

Heck, I've even went so far as to show you that James and Paul do not contridict each other, but rather support each other:

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Source

James is not at odds with Paul. "They are not antagonists facing each other with crossed swords; they stand back to back, confronting different foes of the gospel." [Alexander Ross, "The Epistle of James and John," The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1954), 53.] In 1:17-18, James affirmed that salvation is a gift bestowed according to the sovereign will of God. Now he is stressing the importance of faith's fruit--the righteous behavior that genuine faith always produces. Paul, too, saw righteous works as the necessary proof of faith.

When Paul writes, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight," (Rom. 3:20),
[FONT=face="verdana,arial,helvetica,geneva"]

he is combatting a Jewish legalism which insisted upon the need for works to be justified; James insists upon the need for works in the lives of those who have been justified by faith. Paul insists that no man can ever win justification through his own efforts. . . . James demands that a man who already claims to stand in right relationship with God through faith must by a life of good works demonstrate that he has become a new creature in Christ. With this Paul thoroughly agreed. Paul was rooting out 'works' that excluded and destroyed saving faith; James was stimulating a sluggish faith that minimized the results of saving faith in daily life. [D. Edmond Hiebert, The Epistle of James (Chicago: Moody, 1979), 175.]

[/FONT]

James and Paul both echo Jesus' preaching. Paul's emphasis is an echo of Matthew 5:3: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." James's teaching has the ring of Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Paul represents the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount; James the end of it. Paul declares that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the law. James declares that we are saved by faith, which shows itself in works. Both James and Paul view good works as the proof of faith--not the path to salvation.

James could not be more explicit. He is confronting the concept of a passive, false "faith," which is devoid of the fruits of salvation. He is not arguing for works in addition to or apart from faith. He is showing why and how, true, living faith always works. He is fighting against dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace.

John MacArthur, James 2 verses Romans 4

Source

And yet, you still insist on saying:

By your faith and your works God justifies you

Work along with faith, does not justify you. Period.

Oh, one last question:

If your statement here is correct:

By your faith and your works God justifies you, because you are doing what he said to do as he told you to do.

If believing, having faith, and doing what God commands us to do, justifies us, why did Jesus have to come at all?

BTW, I did not ask you what you were raised as, I asked you what denomination or faith do you now belong to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

randomguy1 · Feb 4, 2009

Dean,
I did not say that your works and faith justify you, I said, as the Bible says, it is God that justifies you based on your faith and works. Because faith and works are just believing in Him and following his commandments. They are essentially the same thing.

Acts 13:39 (NKJV) "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Roma 3:28 (NKJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Gala 2:16 (NKJV) "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

What I think you aren't seeing here is that faith and works are the same thing. Works are believing in Him (Jesus), and thus doing what he says do.

Hebr 11:17 (NKJV) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
19 concluding that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Abraham didn't just go up one day and decide to offer up Isaac. God told him to do this and because Abraham believed in God he followed his commandments, and God justified him by his works because he believed in Him followed his commandments.

Jame 2:21 (NKJV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

wherethebiblespeaks · Feb 4, 2009

DeaconDean said:
Ok, I'll give you that. But, as any serious Bible student would tell you, don't take one single source as the definitive answer.

If you would take the time to look friend, how many sources I used.

I used the The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament because it is one of the best sources for the Greek New Testament.

How many of the Baptist Confessions of Faith did I quote from?

I have a folder at home. from when I was in seminary, that is 4 inches thick from where I studied this topic.

I didn't just pull an article out of the air and use it to support my suppositions.

You have no idea to what lengths I go in study to insure that what I say is true.

I am not one of those who reads the scriptures and then say this is what this means. The Bible expressly forbids this:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -Prov. 3:5 (KJV)

So, why are you debating with me?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I am not trying to debate you Dean. I apologize if my comment came across in that manner. However I will say that I have heard other people of different faiths say that they have also studied extensively on different subjects from the Bible for many years. Does this automatically make them correct on their conclusions for what they have studied? Not necessarily. Look at the scribes and the pharisees; whose whole lives were dedicated to the study of the old scriptures.

I'm not trying to sword fight with you Dean, so please don't take my comments the wrong way.

DeaconDean · Feb 5, 2009

randomguy1 said:
Dean,
I did not say that your works and faith justify you,

Sir, you are not telling the truth. You are back-peddling here. Unless I'm mistaken, was it not you who said:

Your faith and your works justify you to God

Remember saying that?

Or this one:

a man is justified(righteous/lawful) by doing his works AND by faith.

And who was it that said:

By your faith and your works God justifies you

You have said flat out that faith and works justify you.

randomguy1 said:
Works are believing in Him (Jesus), and thus doing what he says do.

Works is not the same thing as faith. Works does not equate to believing.

ergon,n {er'-gon} - anything done or to be done; a deed, work, action, Jn. 3:21; Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 9:8, et. al.; frequently; duty enjoined, office, charge, business, Mk. 13:34; Jn. 4:34, et. al.; frequently; a process, course of action, Jas. 1:4; a work, product of an action or process, Acts 7:41; Heb. 1:10; et. al.; substance in effect, Rom. 2:15 {Jn. 6:29}

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Pub. Company, Peabody, Mass., 01962, "ergon", p. 171

Lets look at the word "believe":

pisteuw,v {pist-yoo'-o} - perfect, to believe, give credit to, Mk. 1:15; 16:13; intransitive, to believe, have a mental persuasion, Mt. 8:13; 9:28; Jas. 2:19; to believe, be of opinion, Rom. 14:2; in NT "pisteuein en, eiV, epi" to believe in or on, Mt. 18:6; 27:42; Jn. 3:15, 16, 18; absolutely to believe, be a believer in the religion of Christ, Acts 2:44; 4:4, 23; 13:48; transitive, to intrust, commit to the charge of or power of, Lk. 16:11; Jn. 2:24; passive, to be intrusted with, Rom. 3:2; 1 Cor. 9:17

Ibid, p. 329

In John 6:29, the phrase "touto estin to ergon tou qeou" to whom is the "work" attributed to? You or to God?

In all the verses you quoted, you rightly credit God as the One who justifies, but then you turn right around and say that it is "your faith and your works God justifies you".

And what I have tried to show you is that at the moment you are regenerated, given faith to believe, and exercise that faith, you are redeemed, forgiven, righteous, justified.

Justification is not a process.

If you are brought before a judge on a charge of murder, you have 10 witnesses that place you at another place at the time of the murder, that proves you are innocent. The judge bangs His gavel, pronounces you "Not Guilty". Do you from that moment on, have to work every day to prove you are innocent?

No.

But yet, that is what you are saying.

By your faith and your works God justifies you,

Here you are saying that after Jesus has already justified you, one must "work" to be justified. And, that God looks at your faith and works, then justifies you. And I quote:

By your faith and your works God justifies you

Your justification does not rest on Christ, rather yoru justification rests on not only having faith in Christ, but also in doing some sort of "work."

Work and Faith, are two different things.

pistiV,n {pis'-tis} - faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Rom. 14:23; ground of belief, guarentee, assurance, Acts 17:31; good faith, honesty, integrity, Mt. 23:23; Gal. 5:22; Titus 2:10; faithfulness, truthfulness, Rom. 3:3; in NT faith in God and Christ, Mt. 8:10; Acts 3:16; et. al.; frequently "h pistiV," the matter of Gospel faith, Acts 6:7; Jude 3, et. al.

Ibid, p. 329

Hebr 11:17 (NKJV) By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
19 concluding that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Abraham didn't just go up one day and decide to offer up Isaac. God told him to do this and because Abraham believed in God he followed his commandments, and God justified him by his works because he believed in Him followed his commandments.

Jame 2:21 (NKJV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Again, Paul contridicts that.

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

Remember, the same Greek word used here in Rom. 4:3 can mean both righteous or justified.

"dikaiow" - (Strongs Number 1344 - dik-ah-yo'-o) to make or render right or just; mid. to act with justice, Rev. 22:11; to avouch to be good and true, to vindicate, Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:29, et. al.; to set forth as good and just, Lk. 10:29; 16:15; in NT to hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify, Rom. 3:26, 30; 4:5; 8:30,33, et.al.; pass. to be held accquitted, to be cleared, Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:24; 6:7; to be approved, to stand accepted, Rom. 2:13; 3:20,28, et.al.

Ibid, p. 102

Paul is saying that Abraham believed God, and was made righteous, justified.

"dikaiosunhn" is in the accusitive. Abraham was declared righteous/justified because he believed, not because he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Abraham had an active faith, not a passive one. It was his faith that was producing works. (cf. Mt. 7:16)

In James 2:24, your favorite verse, the same Greek word is there: "dikaiosunhn".

Righteousness/justification.

What you are saying, and what you are saying that James is saying, is that by faith and works, righteousness/justification comes.

And that ain't so.

Righteousness/justification comes only one way, and that is through Jesus Christ and not works.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" -Rom. 5:1 (KJV)

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood," -Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

"...by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -Rom. 5:18-19 (KJV)

Justification is a one time event, not a process.

That is what the bible teaches.

That is what the Historic Baptist Confessions teach.

That is what I teach.

Your statement here:

your faith and your works God justifies you

Is saying that the work done by Christ on the cross, was not sufficent to make you righteous and justified. It takes not only faith, but faith and works to justify one in the sight of God. Jesus' work on the cross was not enough.

That is what you are saying. That is what you are saying that James is saying.

I have tried, and I have tried to show that works are not the grounds for our justification. But yet you keep implying that it is.

Faith is the cause and works are the effect.

By faith we are made righteous/justified in the sight of God, and because we have been, works are the result/effect of that faith.

Abraham believed and was made righteous/justifed. And because he was made righteous/justfied, that faith gave evidence of it in his leaving his homeland, believing God when He said that he would have a son even though he was too old to have a son, and by offering up his son.

These things came as a result of, show the effect of, being made righteous/justification. They were not the grounds of being made righteous/justified.

If works played any part in our righteousness, our justification, then Paul says that that destroys the grace of God:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -Rom. 11:6 (KJV)

The bottom line here friend, the Baptist confessions say that by believing in Jesus Christ, we are made righteous and justified without any consideration of any work that we may do.

And you are teaching contrary to the Baptist faith.

I'm done with you. You still want to believe that faith and works justify you. Be my guest. I'll not have to answer for that to God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What is a "work"?

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