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Gwendolyn

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I'm sorry! I am so full of questions today! Please be patient with me!

Whenever people say, "Catholics believe works can save you", I always assumed they meant that they thought that Catholics believe that if you give to the poor, do charity work, be nice to people, etc., that that saves you even if your heart is hard inside. (Which isn't true, Catholics believe that one is saved by the Grace of God, through faith in Christ.)

But then in another thread, a poster mentioned that baptism is a work.

I don't understand.

Could someone please explain to be what you mean by "work" or "works"? What is a "work"? Could you list some for me, as examples? Could you tell me what makes something a "work"?

Thanks.
 
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Gwendolyn

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*subscribing

lol Jack, I saw you replied and I was going to come in here and be like, "Dangit, Jack! You aren't baptist! Why are you answering my thread!"

But seriously, I do want to know what constitutes a "work"...
 
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Epiphoskei

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Everyone subscribing, eh?

A work, in the Pauline sense of "not by works, lest any man boast," the kind that Protestants reject, is a deed done in addition to the faith of Christ in order to get justified.

Reminder: This is the Baptist subforum. Questions and discussion are fine, but no debating by the guests.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Everyone's subscribing because I think they had no idea that baptists considered baptism a work. I definitely didn't, the first time I heard that was today in this forum.

I'm not trying to debate, I am just trying to get a handle on this. Why would baptism be considered a work, but saying the sinners' prayer and/or making a public profession of faith wouldn't? If you've already accepted Jesus in our heart, why do you have to say the prayer/make a profession?

Or are those just formalities/ordinances too, like baptism?
 
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Epiphoskei

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As a Reformed (Calvinistic) Baptist I believe that faith, if it were not the work of God, would be a work. But being a work of God within us, it is not a work in the "not by works" sense, since no man may boast of God's work within us.

Baptists consider all sacraments non-salutary, including baptism.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Baptists do not believe that water baptism has any effect in your salvation. Instead, we believe in the it is an act of obedience - an outward declaration in our faith in a crucified,buried and risen Saviour,, an identification with Christ. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit - that moment when we come to faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit - Who had convicted us of our sin and calls us to faith - regenerates us and makes us new in Christ. It is that Spirit who will lead us to works of faith - the acts of charity and kindness, etc - that accompanies true faith in Him.

So we would see water baptism as a 'work' (an act of obedience by man) that does not save as opposed to spiritual baptism which is an act of God's which does save.


So in light of that, in regards to Catholics and works, Baptists would see the Catholic belief that water baptism is necessary for salvation, as expressed in the quotes below, as believing in salvation by works:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Yes, you believe in salvation by grace but also place more value in water baptism and communion than a Baptist would. That is what is behind those types of statements that you mentioned.
 
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mlqurgw

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A "work" is anything, no matter how small that thing is, that is thought to add to or cause God to favor you. Be it obedience to a set of rules, a decision, the act of faith, or any number of things that folks do that makes them feel as though God looks on them better in some way. God doesn't save or bless based on anything we do but because of the perfect obedience and saving death of Christ Jesus the Lord. A 'work" earns something from God. Christ has already earned all that there is so we can't earn anything. That is what separates grace from works. Salvation, which includes all the blessings, fulfilled promises and eternal bliss, is by the grace of God in and by Christ Jesus alone.
 
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randomguy1

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I'm new here also but I'd like to offer some scripture on works.

Jame 2:18 (NKJV) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So as you can see by this passage, works is doing what God instructs you to do (follow his commandments).
 
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DeaconDean

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But...the real question here is, are you simply doing it because it is a requirement of the Law, i.e.; included in the commandments and scriptures, or, are you doing it out of a love for God?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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randomguy1

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Decon, first where does it say that doing works is required by law? There is no law except the law of faith. Unless of course you are talking about the Old Testament law, in which case we are no longer bound.

Roma 3:27 (NKJV) Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Gala 2:16 (NKJV) "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gala 3:11 (NKJV) But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith."


John 6:28 (NKJV) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

One can not be justified by works alone, one must be justified by works and by faith. Our faith is our law, our faith tells us to follow his commandments which are our works.
 
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DeaconDean

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One can not be justified by works alone, one must be justified by works and by faith. Our faith is our law, our faith tells us to follow his commandments which are our works.

Twice in this sentence, you used the term "justified".

What does the word "justification" mean?

According to the Theolopedia:


Source

According to the Baptist Confessions of Faith:


Source

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology says:


Source

James Petigru Boyce in his work "Abstract of Systematic Theology" teaches:


Source

So I am sorry, but you have a wrong view of "Justification" from a Baptist standpoint.

We are justified by God by our faith in Christ, by His imputed righteousness to us, and "not of works, lest any man should boast". (cf Eph 2:8-9)

Whatever our works are, they are evidence of our faith. These are the things we told to look for in Jesus' words:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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In Gerhard Kittel's great work: The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", we read:


The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor; Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi. Copyright 1964, Vol II, dikaiow, p. 211-219.

That is the essence of Sola Fide. Faith Alone. Or do you reject that?


Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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If the book of James indeed teaches that a man is justified in the sight of God by works, then Martin Luther was absolutely correct when he said of the book of James calling it:

"an epistle of straw."

And Luther was also correct in saying:


Martin Luther's Preface to James and Jude.

Source

If you are justified by works, then Martin Luther was correct and the book of James should be ripped from the canon of scripture.

What James does teach is that those who say they have faith, and no works as evidence of that faith, then their faith is suspect.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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randomguy1

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Decon,

My definition of justification is just as yours, to be righteous. And what is it to be righteous? To be just and lawful.

I agree that a man cannot be justified(righteous) by his works alone, I said that before; a man is justified(righteous/lawful) by doing his works AND by faith.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

And once again, what is works?

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Thus following His commandments.


And did I understand you right, that you think the book of James should be thrown out of the Bible?
 
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Caedmon

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Baptists do not believe that water baptism has any effect in your salvation. Instead, we believe in the it is an act of obedience - an outward declaration in our faith in a crucified,buried and risen Saviour,, an identification with Christ.
What are the repercussions for a Baptist not getting baptized?
 
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