what is a religion?

Dok said:

Good grief. How can ANYONE place Christianity in the camp of "religion" ????? Yuk ! ! !

:o

Click to expand...

Christianity is a religion, or a number of religions. You may have a private version, but for sure its a religion as practiced by most of a billion or so people.
.

durangodawood said:

Christianity is a religion, or a number of religions. You may have a private version, but for sure its a religion as practiced by most of a billion or so people.
.

Click to expand...

Aw, too bad. Otherwise churches would owe so much money in back taxes from their revoked religious tax exempt status that it would fix all our economic problems.

Dok said:

Good grief. How can ANYONE place Christianity in the camp of "religion" ????? Yuk ! ! !

:o

Click to expand...

Easy, we know the definition of the word.

Dok said:

Good grief. How can ANYONE place Christianity in the camp of "religion" ????? Yuk ! ! !

:o

Click to expand...

Because Christianity is a religion.

Just because a minority of Evangelicals a few decades ago decided to try to redefine "religion" in a highly peculiar way as a manipulative form of evangelism doesn't change the facts.

Here is how the Oxford English Dictionary defines "religion":

religion(re·li·gion)

Pronunciation:/riˈlijən/
noun

• the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power , especially a personal God or gods:ideas about the relationship between science and religion

• a particular system of faith and worship:the world’s great religions
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance:consumerism is the new religion

James 1:27 says, "Pure and undefiled religion before God our Father is..."

The Greek word is threskeia, translated in the Vulgate as religio from which we get the English word religion.

This sense of religion as devotion or a dedicated pursuit toward God has long been part of English language and communication and can be seen in the distinction often placed between the religious life (becoming a monk/nun or being ordained clergy) and the secular life (working the 9 to 5).

Religion, as is used rather consistently and most often in the English language describes a system of beliefs and practices, incorporating some notion of the numinous or spiritual.

Religion in Buddhism isn't theistic, but still is a system of beliefs and practices with a thorough spiritual and/or numinous dimension.

Religion in Christianity is our belief in God and in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit; our confession of Christ's death and resurrection, our hope for resurrection and eternal life and the Age to Come. Our worship including prayer, sacred song, our reading of Holy Scripture, the administration of the Sacraments, our devotion to walking the Spiritual life as disciples of Jesus and abiding by His teachings and commandments.

That's what Christian religion is constituted as.

And I'm sorry, but the cliche' Evangelical trope that "Christianity is a relationship, not a religion" is a worn one that produces a false dichotomy and serves no purpose but as evangelistic manipulation--frankly I see it as dishonesty, even if it's unintentional dishonesty. Christianity is a relationship, one which we have with and in Christ in the fellowship of the Church and the Holy Spirit by our life together as the Church as the gathered community and assembly around the Lord's Table lived together in a life dedicated to mutual submission, respect, compassion, grace and love toward one another, praying for one another and giving of ourselves for the sake of one another. But that relationality constitutes our religion.

Religion isn't a naughty word. It's a perfectly good word.

-CryptoLutheran

durangodawood said:

That could describe an economic system, or an artistic movement.
.

Click to expand...

What if we added, "with a spiritual and/or numinous dimension"?

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure we can wholly exclude economic systems or artistic movements from religion. The way some of us as human beings are devoted to particular ideologies, philosophies, political movements, or economic philosophy sure seems to jive with a general sense of religion. Treating these things rather spiritually or as having its own sacral imprint upon the lives of many people.

One reason I avoid overt displays or acts of nationalism is because I regard much of what constitutes modern American nationalism to be inherently religious in nature and I'm simply uncomfortable with it--I don't regard national flags or political documents as sacred.

-CryptoLutheran

The "dishonesty" finds a home in the Catholic Church, organized religion, devoting itself to programs, procedures, policies, hierarchies, rules, structure, works, limited atonement, claiming in and of itself divinity, infusing the actual blood and body of Jesus.

Christianity is none of that. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of us all. Christianity is our surrender to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is His representative in each of us, not found in structure. We celebrate our eternal life in Jesus, not found in rituals, songs, sacraments --- our eternity is found in Him.

Awesome post, I agree with 99% of what you said.

ViaCrucis said:

Religion in Christianity is our belief in God and in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit;...
-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

You mean our belief in God the Father and in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. God exists as the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit; He is one in three, not one of three.

Dok said:

The "dishonesty" finds a home in the Catholic Church, organized religion, devoting itself to programs, procedures, policies, hierarchies, rules, structure, works, limited atonement, claiming in and of itself divinity, infusing the actual blood and body of Jesus.

Christianity is none of that. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of us all. Christianity is our surrender to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is His representative in each of us, not found in structure. We celebrate our eternal life in Jesus, not found in rituals, songs, sacraments --- our eternity is found in Him.

Click to expand...

The followers of Jesus were not always called "Christians." The name came along some time after, and was used to describe those who followed the teachings of the disciples. And for around 1200 years in Europe the name "Christian" was synonymous with the Catholic Church.

I was raised to believe that Evangelical Christianity was not a religion, but Christianity in it's one true form. But I have come to see the futility in trying to claim a name or tittle that already means something else to the entire rest of the planet. So I am happy to leave the name "Christian" as it is known to everybody else, and instead distinguish my version of it using other descriptors. I am perfectly free to think that I am by myself the one and only true follower of Christ, or that I have somehow managed to be a part of an unbroken lineage that goes all the way back to Jesus teaching His disciples by the Sea of Galilee, but that is beside the point.

"Christianity" has a set meaning to the general population. We are as free to change that as we are to be creative with our spelling!

Religion is part of the description of people that describes generally why they do things the way that they do them. Asking what is their religion is asking what makes them act the way they do. It includes cultural norms but doesn't describe everything about them. Evangelicals act like they do, because they are evangelical, however boys act certain ways because they are boys whether they are evangelical or not. The religion is your description of a person or people that complements the boring facts about them. A boy named Roger has memorized all the US presidents. That is a cold hard fact about Roger. Religion is why he memorized them. An atheist acts a certain way, because they are atheist. Saying they are atheist is a religious statement, because it attempts to explain what their thoughts are and what they are like. Its their religion. Religion is a very broad word.

TG123 said:

Awesome post, I agree with 99% of what you said.


You mean our belief in God the Father and in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. God exists as the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit; He is one in three, not one of three.

Click to expand...

Correct. I wasn't being explicitly Trinitarian in my phrasing, but I am Trinitarian (most assuredly so).

-CryptoLutheran

Dok said:

The "dishonesty" finds a home in the Catholic Church, organized religion, devoting itself to programs, procedures, policies, hierarchies, rules, structure, works, limited atonement, claiming in and of itself divinity, infusing the actual blood and body of Jesus.

Christianity is none of that. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of us all. Christianity is our surrender to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is His representative in each of us, not found in structure. We celebrate our eternal life in Jesus, not found in rituals, songs, sacraments --- our eternity is found in Him.

Click to expand...

So you don't pray? You don't read your Bible? You don't gather with other Christians for worship?

Somehow I think you probably do all these things.

-CryptoLutheran

Dok said:

Good grief. How can ANYONE place Christianity in the camp of "religion" ?

Click to expand...

Whether YOU like it or not, 99% of the world does!

Bruce

Dok said:

Good grief. How can ANYONE place Christianity in the camp of "religion" ????? Yuk ! ! !

Click to expand...

Christianity is what most people in the west think of when they hear the term "religion" - and rightly so.

It's not (and never has been) a derogatory term, by the way. Although it's pretty hard to define what constitutes a religion without finding exceptions to that definition, the closest thing to a concise description might be "organized and/or codified spirituality".

You can be spiritual without being religious, especially when you're on your own - but once you're talking about a group of people who seeks to define a common religious identity for themselves, you're faced with a religion.

You've got a scriptural canon, "approved" ways of reading the same, holidays, rituals, the whole nine yards.

As organized religion has become increasingly unpopular in societies that emphasize individualism, some Christian groups have tried to sell the "it's not a religion, it's a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP"-shpiel in recent decades. But that's not even window dressing. It's totally ignoring both the history and the general nature of Christianity in all of its manifold manifestations.

Christianity (and correct me if I'm wrong) seems to be rather fixed in the tenets. Sure, people can interpret a few things differently along the way but there isn't a lot of wiggle room for the important stuff. Hence all the "one true path" talk.

So, wouldn't a personal relationship imply that the Biblical god does not necessarily have a universal set of rules for everyone? That the personal relationship could vary? Shouldn't all the denominations get along with each other and shouldn't there be no problems with Christian homosexuals since they all have their own personal relationship?

Dok said:

Christianity is none of that. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus, the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of us all. Christianity is our surrender to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is His representative in each of us, not found in structure. We celebrate our eternal life in Jesus, not found in rituals, songs, sacraments --- our eternity is found in Him.

Click to expand...

That sure sounds like all of the marking of a religion to me.

.

So, wouldn't a personal relationship imply that the Biblical god does not necessarily have a universal set of rules for everyone? That the personal relationship could vary? Shouldn't all the denominations get along with each other and shouldn't there be no problems with Christian homosexuals since they all have their own personal relationship?

Click to expand...

Gotta luv it. Wow. The Biblical God came to us in the Person of Jesus, minus a universal set of rules. The personal relationship cannot possibly vary! It is with God, who has imparted His Righteousness to us!

"Get along" with each other? What does that mean? Be friendly? Come on!!! We are to be ONE spiritually. There is only ONE interpretation of scripture that is correct, perfect, incapable of being distorted or challenged, and that is the ONE provided by the Holy Spirit to those who have been spiritually born from above, whose spiritual nature dominates the sinful nature. Show me one person who, in a Spiritual relationship with the God of everything, can condone or participate in sin. Although HE will never leave us or forsake us, although our eternity is secure, imagine how disruptive, if not disgusting, living in sin while born again can be! What does sin do to that personal relationship? How often do we grieve the Holy Spirit and get away with it?

It has zero zilch nada to do with defined secular structure, with rules, policies, procedures, all that "stuff" appended to knowing the One in whom we place our faith, trust, and calm, confident assurance. In HIM, not in the church, not in water baptism, not in rituals, not in "fathers," pastors, bishops, elders, deacons ....... it's a long list, not one of which is a substitute for, or necessary addition to, salvation by grace through faith.

p.s. Jane the Bane .... THANK GOD we're ignoring all that stuff!!!! JESUS is our manifestation!

Dok said:

Show me one person who, in a Spiritual relationship with the God of everything, can condone or participate in sin. Although HE will never leave us or forsake us, although our eternity is secure, imagine how disruptive, if not disgusting, living in sin while born again can be! What does sin do to that personal relationship? How often do we grieve the Holy Spirit and get away with it?

Click to expand...

Sin is sin. Some people outside of the Church view sin with the same disgust that you do, but the sins they look at are those committed by Christians in the pews:

Hypocrisy
Lies
Judgmentalism
Covetousness
Lust
Heresy
etc...


If you want an answer to your question, ask the nearest regular church goer!

Dok said:

p.s. Jane the Bane .... THANK GOD we're ignoring all that stuff!!!! JESUS is our manifestation!

Click to expand...

You don't derive your theology, morals and devotional practices from the Bible, specifically an Evangelical reading of the same?
You don't attend some form of church service on Sundays or (depending on your denomination) Saturdays?
In short, you do not feel that you belong to any closely defined group with a shared sense of religious identity ("we are born-again Christians")?

Then congratulations, you qualify as being spiritual without being religious.
However, I doubt that any of the above applies to you or anybody else who quotes the tired old "it's not a religion, it's a personal relationship"-nonsense.

Then congratulations, you qualify as being spiritual without being religious.

Click to expand...

THANK YOU ! !

Religion comes from the word "religare", meaning "to bind" or "to covenant", usually with something larger than yourself. Religion is based in relationship, and thus being in healthy relation to all things. As Above So Above, As Within so Without - See what is around you as yourself and become one with all things as God is one.