What is a moral in religion

[plummyy]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

 

[Masihi]

You may have heard testimonies of Christians saying they became a different person after accepting Christ. What changed? Their sense of perception perhaps. If they drank to escaape life, they no longer drink. If they cursed in every sentence spoken, they no longer curse. If they beat their wives, they no longer do so. Etc.
They became aware of a higher morality, if you would permit the term. Scripturally its referred to being "born again", the "renewing of the mind", "self-control".
A problem of living life without this focus is that people will let their morality get defined by those around them. ie germans at first sensed that Nazi treatment of polish peoples was cruel and unnecessary but their moral standard changed and eventually most germans ended up approving of the treatment.
ie Muslim peoples feel isis beheaadings are horrible to look at but necessary for their god and they hold a different moral standard even when compared to agnostics.
Moral standards go from bad to worse depending on the nation you live in.
But Christians who keep focused on Christ have a moral standard that they know is correct, honors human llife, is love-centered, does no harm, is Godly because it comes from Gd.

 

[oi_antz]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

That's interesting. I do wonder why that repetition exists. No doubt some unrealistic beliefs are behind it.

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?

I often do wish to do harm, and often do it. It is not often I would consciously choose to not do harm when I desire to. However the harm I speak of is not murder or theft, but rather passive aggression, a pride/ego thing when my rights are disrespected, or even when I am discomforted. Eg if someone is wearing perfume I will make sure they know it is offensive. I struggle very hard to be polite about it. I actually perceive it as a gross disrespect, but not only because it is unpleasant, but rather that people who do it have such arrogance to think it is their right. So that is difficult for me. Other examples might be if someone I am talking to keeps interrupting me or asking questions and not listening to the answers (yes, the ones on this website will know I have them in mind), I normally get rude in some way. Friends who keep needing money, I had one who was worst. He asked me for cash for cigarettes once, I was sick of him asking for money, though he always would pay it back, just he did not seem to care about the annoyance. I refused him, rudely too. That sort of thing, the type of treatment that is not nice to receive. Though it probably needs to be balanced too, that I gladly close the gate for flatmates if I am in the yard so they don't need to get out of their car. I will always help someone if I can and if I know they need help. I smile at shop tellers who feel like slaves etc. But yeah, I have needs and sense of self and moral expectations too.

----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings.

There probably is a great amount of this going on too. But what exactly is it?? Is this like saying no I don't get a natural desire to rape someone? Well what if I was accustomed to believe I would enjoy doing it? What if I had one day done it accidentally and the idea grew into desire? I reckon that is possible, BTW. So we take it down a notch. Hunting animals is much more socially acceptable but just as deplorable an idea IMO. I reckon I could become accustomed to that immorality too. OK, so slaughtering animals in a commercial operation? Ditto. I have killed animals before. I actually dread doing it. But I could become accustomed to it. OK, so I eat meat sometimes. I know what I am doing by proxy, I have identified an acceptable level of immorality wrt murder right there. Is that helpful?

Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

Have you managed to figure out the difference yet? How would you describe it?

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

I reckon you are overestimating yourself. Can you not even think of one person in your entire life who has thought you were unfair to them, or who suffered due to your action when you chose to not help them? Really, I expect you would be very close to God if that were the case. I think your definition of morality could require adjusting. Let's see what you reckon.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians?

Yes, but not only atheists. And I blame it on the sheep who believe they are Christian but do not think freely, and the ones who teach them. They are the ones who promote such thoughtless nonsense, terrible hypocritical dishonest judgement of those who are inferior to what they think of themselves. Such resentment cannot be restrained forever, and gradually the group mentality, with anti-religion becoming a stronger force, and the Christian social strength appearing to have been weakened over LGBT issues, certainly the hate will gain traction unless Christians on the whole become more godly and worthy of respect, and able to be loved, and givers of love.

This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

I think your sense of morality is the same as mine, or any other person's, but that we probably have different views on two key things: what constitutes a neighbour, and what do we believe is the best thing to do. For instance, many people believe non-humams to be less of their neighbour and therefore less entitled to be treated morally than a human. Up until very recent history, it was widespread belief that coloured people were less entitled to moral equity. Even in modern world, there is class and race based inequality, and age too. Some religions even teach that those outside of their religion should be treated as sub-human. The other one is interesting though, as I described only two weeks ago. A beggar asked me for change so he could get the bus back to the city. I asked how he got out there. He said his friend dropped him off. I said I normally do help people who need money, but that day I explained to him the meaning of the saying "give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime". I thought that day, he needed to learn a lesson to not get in situations he couldn't get out of. I deliberately did not give him money, not because I wanted the money for myself, but because I feel the hard lesson was more valuable. I gave some change to a charity outside the supermarket soon after, who was collecting to feed homeless youth, and I felt that it was better to have done that.

 

[Neogaia777]

This:



It's written as a prayer to the Lord, but these list of virtues, that our leaders and we should have, can apply to any person of any religion, or no religion at all:

Lord, grant us, give to us, let us be showing toward you, Faith, Hope, Love, Trust, Truth, Honesty, Patience, Peace, Serenity, Joy, Happiness, Goodness, Thankfulness, Gratefulness, Virtue, Integrity, Strength, Courage, Endurance, Wisdom, Self-control, Selflessness, Satisfaction, Fulfillment, Contentment, Wholeness, Completeness, Bliss, Grace, Mercy, Gentleness, Empathy, Forgiveness, Understanding, Absolution, Acceptance...

Lord, show toward us, (and let us be showing toward you and others), Long-suffering Kindness, Purity, Meekness, Mildness, Humbleness, Lowliness, Gentleness, Tenderness, Generosity, and showing Humility and dependent and trusting upon you, in Love.

Lord, show toward us, Salvation, Redemption, Forgiveness, Reconciliation with You, Righteousness, Justice, Discernment, Guidance, Direction, Purpose...

Lord help us be Zealous for you, and your will, and the good news, and the good of others, Certainty and Confidence, in our Convictions and Beliefs about you... Positivity and a Positive Spirit, and Sureness in you... Genuine Concern for others, Optimism in the things to come, Genuine Affection for/toward you, ourselves, and others, Genuine Devotion, and Tenderness of Heart...

Unity in Us, in line with your will, Help us to Accurate and Authentic and Correct and Legitimate, and genuine in ourselves and the things about you, Let us face fate with fortitude practicing forebearance and tolerance and be submissive and always yielding to your will and help us be persistent with others in our beliefs about you.

In Jesus name, Amen

 

[com7fy8]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

Morality, as I think you together have talked about, is not only about outward behavior.

Jesus says if you look at a woman the wrong way, you already have committed adultery with her, in your heart > Matthew 5:27-28.

And someone who hates his brother is a murderer, we see in 1 John 3:15.

But this is meant to show us how we need to love any and all people, not to just want to use someone for pleasure, and not to hate those we can't use for what we want. It is "easier" to love people, when we are committed to not using people and we are not expecting and demanding what we want and not being "entitled".

So, the purpose of Christian morality is not to babysit us and which things we can do or not do, but morality is meant to bring us to do all that our Father desires. There are people who think they can do whatever they would like, as long as they don't do a certain list of things the Bible says are no-no's. This is not real morality, if they are not first about doing all that God pleases, as He guides (Colossians 3:15).

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings.

While we stay busy with what God's love has us doing, His love keeps us from wrong feelings and emotions and reacting . . . perhaps I should say, as much as we have matured in God's love.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

I have something to do; I hope to be back

 

[aiki]

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)
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Perhaps what your "lovely cousin" doesn't get and isn't clearly communicating to you is the absence among atheists of a good philosophical reason not to follow whatever gratifying impulse seizes them - even if it is a murderous one. As the famous Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky noted, "If God does not exist, all things are permitted." Richard Dawkins has declared that human beings are just "dancing to their DNA," being little more, at bottom, than gene-replicating machines. Nietzsche mocked his fellow atheists for hiding from the terrible truth that, if there is no God, then life is ultimately and profoundly meaningless. In light of these things, why should an atheist feel compelled to adhere to any particular morality beyond what arises from their own personal preferences? And if those personal preferences entail murder - as they have for a great many humans - is this not consistent with an atheistic perspective?

It is a testament to the existence of a Moral Law Giver that even atheists have an innate moral sense, a Moral Law, that cannot be reasonably accounted for by an appeal to the amoral, natural, mechanical processes of a naturalist's Theory of Evolution.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

I don't expect atheists to "snap" and go off on a killing spree of Christians. Though, in atheist Russia during the time of Stalin, Christians were particularly persecuted and killed in a long series of horrendous massacres and imprisonments. The idea, then, that an atheist would never think of murdering a Christian is not borne out by recent history.

I think the ground for an atheist's morality is far less solid and far more problematic than the ground out of which the Christian's morality arises. Does this mean atheists aren't moral? Not at all. Many atheists are quite moral. It is just that they can't give a good accounting for why the source of their morality is not ultimately arbitrary and/or subjective.

Selah.

 

[com7fy8]

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

I think that as Christians our reasons for not hurting others develop as we grow. At first, I stopped trying to hurt people, because I did not want to go to hell. Then I got more into caring about people, so I did not want to hurt them. Then I got to know really Christian and loving people who have been such good friends and good examples for me; and I might think about how I used to be willing to hurt people who could have been such good friends. And because I appreciate and love Jesus and my Jesus family people, I want to not hurt people since they don't. Now it is more like I am not worrying about hurting people, but I am busy with being prayerfully sensitive with each person, so we can relate well with each other, and I am concerned with not trying to use anyone, but first care about each one; so now I am busier with how I need correction to be more real in loving, not only being on the defensive not to hurt anyone.

So, in my case, my morals have become more and more love motivated And a moral basic is not only, don't hurt anyone, but also do not use anyone but first care about each person as much as I care about myself.

I would offer > that there are people who want morals so that others will not mess with them. It is kind of a truce thing: I will be nice to you while you be nice to me, so we both can do our own thing.

However, ones can overlook major moral wrongs, in order to do this.

For just one example > ones assume that it is not murder to kill an unborn person . . . someone, by the way, with whom you could have and learn real love, instead of giving in to unloving people who pressure you to become a killer.

So, have you really stayed clear of murder, or being in agreement with it, or somehow excusing it??

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

It is good that harmful things do not come to your mind. It can be that God is blessing you to be as sane as you are; because God does do some kind of good to every person, whether we realize this or not. However, if you continue on your own, you can get weaker. Also, if someone effectively messes with something you really treasure, you might discover how you can react, then. Only with God can we be truly ready for when things and people turn or go against us.

If you are going around showing that you are doing so great without God, this could help certain people to decide they don't need God and they then could miss out on God; and this would be very harmful.

 

[Neogaia777]

What is moral in religion?

Virtue(s)

God Bless!

 

[com7fy8]

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ.

There were religious people who were involved with torturing and murdering Jesus. And now, we can see some religious people who can be pretty nasty and mean. So, I would not pick on atheists

I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

Like I offered in a post, above, I think God helps everyone, somehow. So, there can be certain morals which are good, that an atheist has . . . but not necessarily all, like I have explained and given an example.

I think there are certain atheistic activists who are putting on a show, in order to "prove" that people can be good without Jesus . . . so that they can have things their way, in a "truce".

Also, I think there can be atheists who want to have happy lives and families which stay together. And by experience they find out that a number of Christian practices work for family. So, they adopt what they find works, but also "might" have some other items.

But > if they do certain practices, they can be missing out on the deeper benefit of how God's love effects us and deeply satisfies us to do what we do. And not all Bible claiming people are deeper than their practices; so these can be misleading, when you discover how deeply they are not strong and sound people.

For only one possible example > if your cousin fears that you might become a killer, we understand that God's love keeps us from fear (1 John 4:18). So, in case your cousin were to be weak for fear, this could be misleading so you suppose mature strong Christians could be afraid of you. But, "of course", any of us can be still deeply not the way we need to become; I know ones who have been good example to help me learn how to have compassion and relate in love; but my lady friend can worry about me getting hit by a raindrop, and it seems others can dread that I get hit by a car while riding my bike. So, even good example people can still have problems needing our Father's deep correction.

 

[plummyy]

( Thanks for the responses!)

So, have you really stayed clear of murder, or being in agreement with it, or somehow excusing it??

I accept that killing is still killing whether done for duty, profit, or fun, and I would be a lair if I said that "I don't believe in killing" but I think most people have a tendency to pick and choose when they support/condemn something like that, try to rationalize it, "we're protecting ourselves" "we're hungry" etc. vs "they're attacking us" "that's murder" etc. Instead of making statements that attempt to simplify complex things such as killing, I allow it to remain like the little diamond that it is. I may accept that killing is okay when I am hungry, or when I am being attacked, or if I were a serial murderer--there always seems to be a reason, doesn't there? You're either protecting your country or satisfying an unbearable urge to make skin sweaters out of people, but I'm not going to try and bundle either or those in category because they share the same result, if the result is what I oppose (correction: I don't oppose death, I opposite entitlement over another's life). Everything has a circumstance, apparently. I've never found a reason to murder, agree with it, or excuse it... what else is murder, but murder? (redrum)

 

[com7fy8]

( Thanks for the responses!)

You are welcome

I accept that killing is still killing whether done for duty, profit, or fun, and I would be a lair if I said that "I don't believe in killing" but I think most people have a tendency to pick and choose when they support/condemn something like that, try to rationalize it, "we're protecting ourselves" "we're hungry" etc. vs "they're attacking us" "that's murder" etc.

Yes, I think ones can make up our reasons. Now, also, we see how a country can justify killing thousands of noncombatants. It can be a financial reason, really, to avoid needing to pay money to replace soldiers, but it can be claimed to care about the countries own soldiers. And one can pick and choose who one prays for, during a military thing. And we can pick and choose who we care about and who we love > this can come down to which person is cuter or more handsome or more beautiful.

Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46.

So, Christian morals include how our Father wants us to love any and all people as ourselves . . . and not to throw the first stone >

"For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

But if you go to a church, it is possible you will hear prayer only for favorite people or a favorite country, but God has this covered > we need "longsuffering" with one another Christians, we have in Ephesians 4:2. We get judged first, and we need "longsuffering" with one another, because we will see wrong things. However, it is good to see things that are wrong and take this as an incentive to get correction so we don't get or stay in wrong things, and so we do not give in to the temptation to self-righteously look down on wrong people.

Instead of making statements that attempt to simplify complex things such as killing, I allow it to remain like the little diamond that it is. I may accept that killing is okay when I am hungry, or when I am being attacked, or if I were a serial murderer--there always seems to be a reason, doesn't there? You're either protecting your country or satisfying an unbearable urge to make skin sweaters out of people, but I'm not going to try and bundle either or those in category because they share the same result, if the result is what I oppose (correction: I don't oppose death, I opposite entitlement over another's life). Everything has a circumstance, apparently. I've never found a reason to murder, agree with it, or excuse it... what else is murder, but murder? (redrum)

Yes, there is the thing about feeling entitled . . . can be very deadly and deathly so we do not find out how to love.

 

[paul1149]

You may be the rare person who never has been deeply hurt. Or, having been hurt, you may never have felt the desire to repay evil. That is also rare, but probably less so.

Or maybe you've never used another person for your own selfish interests? This would be very rare indeed.

I think what your relatives are getting at is the philosophy behind your position. If this life is all there is, if there is no accountability or no higher purpose, what is the basis of feelings that take you outside of selfish interests? From where does it come? Man seems to have an innate connection with some foundational principle or thing.

The Bible says that Christ is the light that illumines every man. The image of God was effaced, not erased, when man fell in the garden. Otherwise we would have no knowledge of sin. We may also argue that, despite a historical record that is far from perfect, Christianity has had a tremendous humanizing effect on civilization, one that is easy to overlook.

However wonderful a person may be in regard to humanist values - and that is indeed a good thing - Jesus leaves no quarter for self-righteousness. One of the goals of the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5-7) is to take the law to its ultimate logical conclusion, and thereby show it has no power to change the heart. Neither can it justify man, because God's standard is perfection.

The Gospel offers a remedy: love fulfills the law, because love does no harm. But what is the basis of that love?

 

[plummyy]

I reckon you are overestimating yourself. Can you not even think of one person in your entire life who has thought you were unfair to them, or who suffered due to your action when you chose to not help them .

Do you reckon that supporting self destructive behavior, reprehensible behavior, is the amoral act over saying "no"? If we're talking about hurt feelings, i dont believe even the most correct person could act morally permissible around a child, or someone with such similarities. That perspective will always feel unfairly treated, but not any more than anyone who feels entitled to ask and recieve what they wish from people. If they cry about it, punch a wall, do we lose our respectability? i wouldn't think so, but dont take my word for it, because i often deny people their perceived right to control or use me.

 

[oi_antz]

Do you reckon that supporting self destructive behavior, reprehensible behavior, is the amoral act over saying "no"? If we're talking about hurt feelings, i dont believe even the most correct person could act morally permissible around a child, or someone with such similarities. That perspective will always feel unfairly treated, but not any more than anyone who feels entitled to ask and recieve what they wish from people. If they cry about it, punch a wall, do we lose our respectability? i wouldn't think so, but dont take my word for it, because i often deny people their perceived right to control or use me.

Yes. Morality lies somewhere in between all of that. Whether you are unreasonable to not do it for them or whether they are unreasonable to expct you to do it for them, that is where it should be defined for or against you. I do believe though, not even one person is perfectly moral by this definition. Eg, I was appalled one day when a homeless man told me nobody would buy him a box of matches to light his cigarette. It's 50c! That is immoral IMO, someone who wants to make him suffer for no good reason whatsoever. I bought him a box of matches BTW.

 

[plummyy]

I think there are certain atheistic activists who are putting on a show, in order to "prove" that people can be good without Jesus . . . so that they can have things their way, in a "truce".

Would you please elaborate ?

 

[ViaCrucis]

A lot of this boils down to theology and culture.

Culture in that many Christians have been raised with a sense that religion is necessary in order to make moral decisions; and have a hard time comprehending non-religious morality as meaningful.

Theology in that for many/some Christians a primary purpose of religion (and by religion I mean Christian religion here) is to provide a moral structure. Christianity has a purpose in morality-making or in moral self improvement; being a Christian involves a journey toward holiness and righteousness.

I'm a Lutheran, one of the things Lutheranism makes a big deal of is that there is an emphatic and clear distinction between Law and Gospel. Lutheranism has very specific definitions for what the Gospel is and what it does, what the Law is and what it does. Because of the way Lutheranism understands the Law (God's commandments) we are emphatic that it is incapable and unable to make people holy. The Law doesn't make people righteous or make people holy, which means that one cannot get holier or more righteous by trying to obey God's commandments; there is no ladder of righteousness which we can climb to improve ourselves and reach a higher place of "moral rightness". What the Law does, in fact, is reveal our inability to be obedient to God's commandments and thus shows us that we are sinners--that we are not holy and that we are unrighteous under our own strength, power, and will. Conversely the Gospel does make us holy and make us righteous, not by giving us rules or commandments to follow (commandments are always Law, not Gospel) but by the grace of God uniting us to His Son, thereby clothing us with the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ.

Because we are not ourselves righteous we are therefor unable to boast, either before God or men. We can only humbly confess that we are sinners. The righteousness we have in Christ is an "alien" righteousness, it is Christ's righteousness not our own, and because it is Christ's and our possession only by the kindness and mercy of God we can only respond with humble thanksgiving and praise.

So does one need to be a Christian to know they should be a good person? Well, no. That people should act good toward one another can be found in just about any religion and doesn't require a religion at all.

From an evolutionary vantage point the concept of morality is pretty evident--we see rudimentary moralities in our closest biological kin, e.g. chimpanzees--social norms and rules governing social behavior. Certain social rules are evolutionary expedient because it aids in survival--and thus aids in the passing of our genes to the next generation. Human society has far more complex social norms and social expectations, it thus has a far more complex sense of morality. To that end basic social mores, behavioral expectations are endemic to human social behavior. And thus there is plenty from a biological and psychological perspective to provide some sort of moral code regardless of religion. Not murdering, stealing, cheating, or generally being a nasty person is--to that end--a fairly natural expectation from a given human society and one would expect just about anyone, regardless of religion, to have such basic ideas of morality.

To that end much of God's Law is revealed, in what we might say, in nature. Don't murder, don't cheat, don't steal, don't be a jerk, etc. Obviously some commandments are more specific, "I am the LORD your God that brought you out of Egypt, have no other gods beside Me, do not make for yourself any graven image...". Does one need to be a Christian to believe in the God of Israel and to reject idolatry? And the answer to that would be no--Jews and Muslims recognize the same God Christians do and likewise reject idolatry; indeed this commandment is found in the Torah and is as such explicit in Judaism.

If the issue is, chiefly, to aim at being a moral person or have a moral code of conduct that says "Don't be a jerk" well just about every religion teaches that; and again one doesn't need any religion at all to have such a moral code.

Christianity, therefore, isn't special because it is a religion that preaches God's Law; Christianity is significant because it is that religion which preaches the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[com7fy8]

I think there are certain atheistic activists who are putting on a show, in order to "prove" that people can be good without Jesus . . . so that they can have things their way, in a "truce".

Would you please elaborate ?

I have read a number of atheists' writings in which they say they are "moral" and "upstanding" people and so no way could they be sinful and evil, and therefore they don't need Christianity. So, this is what I mean by showing, i.e., showing that they are good people and therefore not sinners who need how Jesus died on the cross for them. They say this, in order to argue that they don't need "religion", and that Christian political activists do not have the right to tell them what to do and make laws saying what they should do and not do, since they are already moral and upright.

But, "of course", some number of those arguing this are ok with killing unborn people, and a number of other items.

I understand that a number of people claiming to be atheists do not want morals because the morals are right, but so that others will be nice to the atheists while the atheists do what they please without God and "religion". So, they want some amount of morals so people don't just do anything, including kill and rob the atheists.

But God's morals are not only for protecting us so we can do whatever we jolly well please as long as we don't obviously hurt anybody else.

Jesus wants us to personally share with God Himself, and submit to how He guides us "continually" (Isaiah 58:11), in His own peace > Colossians 3:15.

And God wants us to love one another, caring about others as much as we care about our own selves, always being ready to become family with anyone who is able to share with us like this. And have hope for those who are not able, but trust God to change and correct and cure anyone to become a person of His love.

So, His morals are oriented to having this intimacy and family sharing with God and one another. But human morals can tend to be oriented to how they can get pleasure. And our pleasure seeking can be an attempt to feel something nicer than the torments and troubles of our deep-down sin problems.

And there are things which God does not have people doing in His love. So, if people do these things, they miss out on how they could be with God in His love. And there is the spirit of evil causing people to do those wrong things. Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. This wicked spirit of Satan messes people up while he has them doing what is wrong, using dominating and dictatorial drives which waste and degrade people. But Jesus gives "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, Biblical morals have to do with what to do and not to do so we stay with Jesus our Groom in His rest for our souls.

Romans 1:18-32 shows us how the exact opposite happened to people who refused God. He let them go from His love's control, so dominating and dictatorial "lusts" could take them over so they did messed-up stuff. People in sin can be desperate for pleasure to make them feel relief from the messy stuff of sin. So, they tend to just use people for pleasure, instead of first caring about any and all people as much as we care about ourselves > in selfish loving, we tend to love only those we want to use and possess > but "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Jesus says in Matthew 5:46. So, Christian morality includes that we do not love selfishly and love does not have us use anyone.

So, Biblical morals are intended to keep us away from activities which get us away from sharing with God in His love and joy and peace.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:14-16).

Complaining and arguing can degrade people from living in God's love; so Bible morality includes that we need to not complain or argue.

So, about your asking for clarification . . . there are atheists who might not have such things in their moral list of no-no's. If they do not find that complaining and lusts and arguing interfere with them getting what they want, they can consider these things to be moral. And, even right while being into such wrong things, they might claim and show that they are moral and therefore don't need Jesus dying on the cross for us.

But God cares about us better than we care about ourselves. So, His morals are better.

 

[food4thought]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

Hi Plummyy;

To your first question: morals are principles of rightness that are supposed to determine both our thought life and our behavior, so it is not an either/or thing but a both/and. For example, the work of grace that God's Spirit does within us leads us to not even think about harming people; but in addition to our new nature given by Christ, we also still possess a flawed, fallen nature so there are times when this nature rises up and the desire to cause another harm crosses our mind, at which point it becomes a matter of choosing not to act on those thoughts/desires.

To your second question: as another poster pointed out, atheistic philosophies have caused people to decide it is in their best interest to kill millions of Christians just because they are Christian (see Russia and China). But our society promotes an ethic of valuing freedom of conscience, so I don't expect that to happen in America anytime soon. I don't expect atheists to be more prone to killing sprees than other people because it likely won't benefit them to do so, but I do agree with the previous poster that said atheists have a hard time logically justifying any sense of morality beyond doing what is in the best interests of themselves and those they care about.

 

[kit]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

I have wondered this often. What is going through their heads? Their morality is limited to the proscription in their particular religion. I marvel when this is posited. It is so alien to me I am dumbstruck when posed with the notion.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

So I often, being a non-believer and being relatively close with my relatives who are christian (my uncle is a pastor and a few years ago, he took the job before they found a house and they literally lived in the church for half a year. Much Christianity in these ones) We always end up getting into discussions about morality.

One of my lovely cousins asked me how I don't kill people, steal, etc. because they genuinely don't get it. And so I was then wondering... to have the morality from your religion, to you, do you feel the urges to do harm, but choose not to?----or is your moral the one that you don't ever have those feelings. Because there's the morality that is in your decision making, and then there's morality, the things you believe/don't have to think about ( ex: do you not kill because it's wrong, and you tell yourself that the thoughts are sinful, or do you not kill because you simply don't want to, and the thoughts never cross your mind to begin with?)

For me, the thoughts don't cross my mind. I don't have harmful thoughts towards people at all, I never have, so it seems strange when I feel like my cousins are afraid that I'll snap or.. something?? I never will, but I'm not so sure that they believe me considering that it partially goes against their beliefs.

Second question: do you guys ever feel like a mass amount of Atheists will "snap" and go on killing sprees, specifically targeting Christians? This is slight sarcasm, but there's a percentage of me that feels like Christian's think this way.. at least, the ones who don't think an Atheist/non-believer can ever have true morality without Christ. I don't know how far the confusion goes, when a christian tells me that they don't understand how, or where I got my morals from. Do you accept that we have them, even if you don't understand, or do you think we're putting on a show? Or? Do you think that we're just imitating you guys?

A moral 'in religion' is whatever the Person desires it to be which may or may not be a positive thing (morals can differ between Religions) ; conversely, a moral where the Christian God (Christ) is concerned... represents Gods actual true character and person . Thus, such a moral is an absolute moral or reflection of God himself which doesn't change , is always positive, and which is something vital to live by. Christian morals and ethics are something that a true follower of Christ desires and puts into action daily because theyre prescribed by God himself ---- aka The Moral Law which all humans have in the fiber of their being , but who many if not most choose to suppress so they can be their own authority and thus choose their own way of living .