What is a free mason?? /need advice?

Plan 9 · Sep 26, 2003

Lynn73 said:
The link does work in my post. Don't know what happened in the quote thing. Well, the Christian could possible be uniting with those that worship some other god. What assurance is there that this GAOTU is the God of the Bible? I just think they should very thoroughly check thinks out. Christians aren't supposed to serve two masters. It's either the Lodge and Mastor Mason or Christ.

Come back, Thaddeus, you're better at this than I am!
LOL

The Masons in my family are good Christians; almost all of them conservative Southern Baptists. They serve only one God. In addition. they belong to a mere fraternal organization. We don't get together to worship at a Masonic organization meeting.
We meet to worship in our churches, our synagogues, or whatever.

billmcelligott · Sep 26, 2003

Thaddeus said:
Do you deny that if a Mason were a Satanist, that Gaotu would be Satan to that Mason?
Technically a Satanist could apply to join Masonry, but applying and being accepted are two different things. I have sat on many exam boards and if the form came in with Satanist on it, the guy would not get very far. I would have thought a true Satanist would have dressed himself as a devout Christian, they dont go around with a sign saying I love Satan. Or do they?

Do we have to return to Masonry's past when Gaotu was called "Jahbulon?" I had never heard of Jahbulon until you defined it for me.
Isn't Gaotu the new term for Jahbulon? Which you defined for us as;
Jah = God
Bul= Baal
On=Is??
Jahbalon , in my opinion is an incorrect term to be used, but that is just my opinion. Like I said before there is no accurate description of the word. I have no idea why in 17th century someone would want to include the word on for Osiris. to my knowledge much of this is modern speculation.
I've since looked up the term and feel most people define "On" as Osiris but I won't quibble.

At any rate can we agree on this much:
You listen to lectures about Gaotu. You pray and take your obigations, swears, to the Great Architect.
Isn't the Great Architect GAOTU? Maybe it's still Jahbulon. Or is this one GA, not to be confused with GAOTU? I get confused. I don't know why God just can't be God within Masonry.
I feel the same as you, but I have to make way for others that do not agree. As a Christian I would be delighted if we had evrything in that venacular. However I am also a realist , I want to make peace with all men not just the Christians. I do not feel that I should impose my wants on others. This is the essence of Freemasonry, thought for others, unselfish behaviour.

I can't make any sense of the "theatrical story." Well Thad like most good stories you have to buy the book. I have to know exactly what Gaotu is first.
Nothing outlandish Thad , Great Architect of the Universe. GAOTU. A decsription of , not the name for God.

SqueezetheShaman · Sep 26, 2003

why do those who haven't been to a masonic meeting keep trying to tell those who have what it is like?

Plan 9 · Sep 26, 2003

SqueezetheShaman said:
why do those who haven't been to a masonic meeting keep trying to tell those who have what it is like?

An interesting question, Shaman.

No one has shown the slightest interest in knowing what and OES meeting is like, even according to any anti-Masonic links, so I don't post here as much as the guys do. I'm small beer.

However, occasionally I'm told that our star symbol is "inverted", and therefore connotes "evil", a concept they've derived from non-Christian belief.

Thaddeus · Sep 26, 2003

billmcelligott said:
Technically a Satanist could apply to join Masonry, but applying and being accepted are two different things

Technically a Christian would have to apply as well.

I have sat on many exam boards and if the form came in with Satanist on it,the guy would not get very far.

What prevents him from getting very far? The 17th Century Masons, your brethern, felt the need to use the term Jahbulon as you pointed out. It's fairly well known that Osiris is an ancient Egyptian pagan god. Baal is a Canaanite pagan god. A pagan god that many Hebrews turned towards ANGERING The One true God. I find that interesting.

I get confused. I don't know why God just can't be God within Masonry.
I feel the same as you, but I have to make way for others that do not agree

So the confusion continues, and it's such a simple fix.

Nothing outlandish Thad , Great Architect of the Universe. GAOTU. A decsription of , not the name for God.

Gaotu, that you swear oaths to, the object of prayers in the temple, isn't a god. It's just a term used to describe God without any concensus in the lodge as to who God is?

Miaka-Chan · Sep 26, 2003

Most of the women in my family belong to OES, the men to Mason's (My grandfather was a 32degree mason ) I think I've posted in this .. uh... I guess its turned into some kind of debate... before.. but I am so proud of all the mason's I know and all the work they do. In fact I'll even give a special thanks because this semester I recieved a $500 scholarship from the mason's and a $300 scholarship from OES. I'm not going to post any argument of why freemasonry isn't evil... thats already been done and to a very good extent! I just wanted to express my appriciation of all the Masonic family out there as a Past worthy advisor & Past Grand officer (of the grand cross of color team) of Rainbows (The international order of rainbows for girls). A masonic founded organization that helped me grow in to a God loving young woman. I am now a majority member as I was married last year. Anyway.. thank you!!!

billmcelligott · Sep 26, 2003

Thadeus,

I get the feeling if i said , " I like baked beans".

You would find I have made a satanic curse ?

I give you the facts , you do with them as you wish. I am not here to convert you. Just to explain if anyone wishes to listen. I have no desire to turn any one from their chosen beliefs. If you have a preconceived opinion on Freemasonry. Then after examining the facts you retain your preconceived ideas , then so be it.

Thaddeus · Sep 27, 2003

Baked Beans are good for you.

I'm just learning from data you have made available to me Bill. I just see a flip side to what you're saying. My main concern revolves around the name of God. It's the one real issue I have with Masonry. Most Masonic lodges consider GAOTU to be the same as God.

Plan 9 · Sep 27, 2003

Thad, I know you believe what you're saying, but here is your very first post on this thread. It appears to strongly imply that you aren't just going by data that Bill and others have given you, but already had other information you trusted. You appear to have already formed the opinion that "some of these guys are evil" and you knew enough about Masonry to ask Bill what degree he was.

Thaddeus said:
bill...may I ask you what degree you are?
I'm a baptist and I believe some of these guys are evil. I believe exactly as does Whitestar.

Plan 9 · Sep 27, 2003

whitestar said:
On the net I know a Mormon that is involved in this and trying to get out...he said MOST of their members have no idea what really goes on at the top levels (you work your way up these levels) and when you reach the hightest level some really horrible stuff does go on. He said something about pledging to satan and doing a blood oath, but then I wasn't able to talk to him in more detail about it. I will see if I can track him down.

He had no clue, as most of the members of what really goes on in the higher levels....so even many of their members are fooled into thinking they are doing good works...which apparently is a cover...

That is about all I know about it, from speaking to someone that made it to the higher level...oh yea and he did say he could be killed for saying anything about it....

God bless
whitestar

And here is the post about which you said, "I believe exactly as does Whitestar."

If we have gotten the impression that you had a preconceived idea before you got here, it's you who gave us that impression. Do you see?

billmcelligott · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus said:
Baked Beans are good for you.

I'm just learning from data you have made available to me Bill. I just see a flip side to what you're saying. My main concern revolves around the name of God. It's the one real issue I have with Masonry. Most Masonic lodges consider GAOTU to be the same as God.

Wonderful Thad we agree on one important issue , baked beans . Thats a start.

If we go back to the beginning of time and the old testament God did not have a name. I am that I am. All the names that have been given to him through the hebrew , greek , latin and french translations have differed slightly.

I suppose it boils down to , does it matter?
I contend that it only matters , whats in your heart, not the name that is used. You say Thadeus I say Thad, we both know who we are speaking of.

Rev Wayne · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus,

Just a question: You said,

Most Masonic lodges consider GAOTU to be the same as God.

Exactly how many "Grand Architects" are there? I don't mean by name, but by concept. By "Grand Architect of the Universe" is implied "the God who created all things." As I understand it, there is only one God who created all things. No matter what name you may call that God by, it does change the fact one bit that this is still the God who created. Therefore, GAOTU may truly be said to be the same as God, but in concept only, and in this one attribute only. Unfortunately, because in Masonic publications the letters are capitalized, many people assume it is a proper name, and hence a "name" for God. It is no different than Scripture with its designation of Yahveh as "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." The phrase is one of delineation, to distinguish which God it is who is being spoken of. And since there is a concept within all religions of God as the one who created all things, the Grand Architect phrase is simply a description used where those of differing faiths may come together in unity, expressing that there are various bonds that unite us all, even within our concepts of who God is.

I have noticed that among "traditional" Christians there is a common practice of capitalizing "God," "Lord," "Master," and similar terms, even also the pronouns used in reference to God. Within Freemasonry it seems to me the practice is an even more pronounced one, and it is no surprise that "GAOTU" when it appears in Masonic writings, appears with the capitals. It is a very unfortunate thing that the capitals seem to have added to, or to some degree caused, confusion of this descriptive phrase with something intended to be a "name" for God--so much so, that even some Masonic writers themselves incorrectly refer to it as a name.

Wayne

Thaddeus · Sep 27, 2003

I tend to think as you do. There is only ONE Creator, but this doesn't mean that everyone shares our belief. If they worshiped the God of Abraham I wouldn't have an issue with Masons.

Masonry allows different faiths to worship GAOTU and each faith has it's own doctrines about God.

This term Jahbulon, which includes Baal, seems to parallel Gaotu in its beliefs of multiple gods. If there isn't more than one God, then why rename God? I think it's very important to understasnd that Baalism was a practice of worshiping different gods under the one name of Baal. I'm sure you've come to the understanding that it didn't please God.

Plan 9 · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus said:
I think it's very important to understasnd that Baalism was a practice of worshiping different gods under the one name of Baal.

Thad, some sources for that assertion, please?

Thaddeus · Sep 27, 2003

Elijah mentions the false gods the Hebrews were worshiping. Here's an articles http://www.bible.org/docs/ot/topics/baal.htm

Plan 9 · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus said:
Elijah mentions the false gods the Hebrews were worshiping. Here's an articles http://www.bible.org/docs/ot/topics/baal.htm[/QUOTE]

I'll keep reading your source, but, so far, it proves your assertion wrong.
It says that Baal was part of a pantheon of gods, rather like that of ancient Greece.

Thaddeus · Sep 27, 2003

billmcelligott said:
I suppose it boils down to , does it matter?

Well I think that would depend on what is being taught about Gaotu. How can they teach you Godly principles, while saying "we call everyone's deity Gaotu, because people worship different Gods?" Their motive for creating the name Gaotu in itself is Ungodly.

Plan 9 · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus said:
Well I think that would depend on what is being taught about Gaotu. How can they teach you Godly principles, while saying "we call everyone's deity Gaotu, because people worship different Gods?" Their motive for creating the name Gaotu in itself is Ungodly.

Thaddeus, you had already made up your mind before you posted here that Masonry was an ungodly religion and now you profess to know the motives of people you have never met. If you wish to believe that Masons can't be Christians, then you have a right to your opinion, but it doesn't make your opinion true.

Rev Wayne · Sep 27, 2003

Thaddeus,

Let me apologize at the outset for the length of this post. I post this to clarify a common misunderstanding which you have picked up on concerning the Royal Arch Ritual. I do not accuse you of falsehood in any way, please do not take my remarks in that way. I simply wish to witness to the truth concerning what you posted

The name of Jahbulon that you mention is from the Royal Arch ritual. The three separate parts of the word, Jah, Bul (or Bel, or Baal), and On, are words with distinct meaning in reference to attributes of God. Much has been made of these words being names of God in other languages, but that is a falsehood that can be exposed from the wording of the ritual itself. The portion that covers these words is as follows:

The first. . . . . is the Chaldaic name of God, signifying His essence of majesty, incomprehensible; it is also a Hebrew word, signifying I am and shall be, thereby expressing the actual, future and eternal existence of the Most High. When the Almighty commanded Moses to go into Egypt to deliver his brethren, Moses said; Behold when I come unto the children of Israel and shall say unto them, the God of your fathers hath sent me unto you and they shall say unto me, what is his name? What shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM, that is I am from eternity to eternity. The second. . . . . is an Assyrian word, signifying, Lord or Powerful; it is also a compound Hebrew word from the preposition Beth, in Heaven, or on high; therefore this word means, Lord in Heaven or on High. The third. . . . . is an Egyptian word, signifying, Father of all; it is also a Hebrew word, signifying strength or power, and is expressive of the omnipotence of the Father of all; taken together they will read thus: I am and shall be, Lord in Heaven or on High, Father of all, the all powerful Jehovah. . . . .

As the author of the ritual says, these words are not only found in the other languages around ancient Israel, they are words that found usage in the Hebrew, and it is the Hebrew usage to which the ritual refers. The Jah of the word corresponds directly to the tetragrammaton name from which the name Jehovah was developed. It is the word YHWH, considered so sacred by the Hebrews that no one dared pronounce it, for fear of breaking the third commandment. The second word, baal, certainly did come to be recognized in reference to false gods in Israel, but not before it had centuries of usage in the language in other ways. The word is first found in Genesis 14:13, and it is translated as master," "owner," husband, or lord. it is not used in the "capital" sense of reference to deity until Judges 2:11. From that point it is used on an almost equal basis either way through the rest of the O.T. It is a word that is used as an attribute of God, as in Isaiah 53:4, Your Maker is your husband. For the word on, a theological dictionary has the following entry:

49 'wn ('wn) II. Assumed root of the following.
(49a) 'own ('ôn) vigor, wealth.

This root occurs as a noun only twelve times. In Gen 49:3; Deut 21:17; Job 40:16; Psa 78:51; Psa 105:36, the word designates reproductive power as evidenced in the firstborn son. In Isa 40:26-27 the creative power of God is highlighted. Physical strength and/or wealth is denoted in Job 18:12; Job 20:10; Hos 12:9.
G.H.L.
(Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 1:24)

This accords very well with the ritual itself, which has just said above,

it is also a Hebrew word, signifying strength or power, and is expressive of the omnipotence of the Father of all

At the beginning of the ritual is a triangle within a circle. Spaced at points on the angles of the triangle are the Hebrew letters Aleph, Beth, and Lamed. By combining them in various formations, the ritual comes up with the Hebrew words for Father, Word, and Spirit. This is a Trinitarian formula. If you will check the writings of the early church fathers, you will find that the word translated asTrinity itself was not developed until the end of the second century. Tertullian seems to have been first to use it, around 180 A.D. Strangely enough, the three parts of the trinity he describes are similar, Father, Word, and Wisdom.

The ritual continues:

This triangle, when placed within a circle, symbolizes the vivying principle extending throughout all created matter: it is therefore called the symbol of Perfection.

The circle, having neither beginning nor ending, typifies the omnipotent Author of the universe; it also reminds us of that grand and awful futurity wherein we hope to enjoy endless bliss and everlasting life.

The W., . . . .. (name letters), which you behold on the circle is the grand and incomprehensible N. of the Most High, the first and the last, the beginning and the ending, which was, is, and is to come; the Almighty. It shows Him to be the actual, future and all-sufficient God who alone has His being in and of Himself, and gives to all others their being, so that He was what He is, is what He was, and shall be, both what He was and what He is, from everlasting to everlasting.all creation being dependent on His mighty will.

(At this point, those present in the ritual rise and sing two verses of a hymn familiar to many of us, printed in the ritual also, the old Trinitarian hymn, Holy, Holy, Holy.

I am certain the ritual writer meant well, but the mention of the cognate words that exist in other languages has only served to confuse the issue, as suspicious and fearful minds have suggested a polytheistic name for what was clearly intended as a combination of attributes of God, and a representation of Trinity.

Wayne

Thaddeus · Sep 27, 2003

Plan 9 said:
Thaddeus said:

I'll keep reading your source, but, so far, it proves your assertion wrong.
It says that Baal was part of a pantheon of gods, rather like that of ancient Greece.

Click to expand...

The pantheon of gods is Baalism.

What is a free mason?? /need advice?

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