What if you became...

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 6, 2007

2.1 No Flaming

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You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's religious beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Calling or describing other people, groups, belief-systems, or ideas as heresy or a cult (or derivatives of these words). Instead of using these emotionally charged words, please state "X is wrong because of Y" rather than using these words in polemical discussion;
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I can't and won't make any comments whatsoever about that, but it is MY view that we are not saved by our articulation of the Athanasian Creed and we are not condemned by our belief in something not expressly stated in the Bible.

Thank you for the discussion and for reading my $0.005

Pax!

- Josiah

andross77 · Mar 6, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
Okay, this is hypothetical, but let's say this very second I suddenly became a Mormon. Who knows why, I just do, and yet I still follow the Nicene Creed and still believe in the Holy Trinity.

Would that make the person here a Christian still?

Absolutely not. If you look at the Mormon articles of faith (i can't post links yet), they say the Book of Mormon is Inspired by God just like the Bible. They also say "man can worship how, where and what they may". Mormonism differs on all the important parts of Christianity (Jesus, faith, salvation).

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 6, 2007

CaliforniaJosiah said:
I can't and won't make any comments whatsoever about that, but it is MY view that we are not saved by our articulation of the Athanasian Creed and we are not condemned by our belief in something not expressly stated in the Bible.

Thank you for the discussion and for reading my $0.005

Pax!

- Josiah

Hi. Many so called "heretics" were probably killed because of going against the established "Creeds".
But from what I have witnessed today in Christ-iandom, they have not brought much Unity in the Assembly of YWHW and HIS Christ. Peace.

quote: But Nicea opened a pandora's box. Remember, the Council was called by the Emperor to restore peace to the Empire. It was in a state of unrest over theological squabbling. This followed after the massive influx of new converts into the Church when it became the new, fashionable, state religion.

The pandora's box was the recourse by Apologists and Bishops to use philosophical terms (e.g. homoousion, among others) not found in the Scriptures to explain doctrine. Such terms have no Biblical definition; consequently, no authority can be ascribed to them except to call another synod to explain and defend them. To use them as tests of fellowship, rather than as aids in understanding, is utter folly and tyranny.

While we at the ************* stand with Nicea, and teach its Creed, yet, we do not use it as a test of orthodoxy. We can only use the language of the Holy Scriptures for that purpose.

We respect the thoughtful heretic who is struggling to understand, yet is unwilling to accept a truth simply on blind faith in an authority figure or from peer pressure. Thomas Jefferson stands as an example of the thoughtful heretic, who I quote at length from his Private Letters:
I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigm of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I AM A REAL CHRISTIAN, and that is to say, a DISCIPLE of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.
- To Charles Thomson, Monticello, January 9, 1816.

ScottBot · Mar 6, 2007

Closing for staff review.

InnocentOdion · Mar 6, 2007

Posted on OP, but also posting here:
For clarification, lets say that as this new Mormon, I did not believe in becoming like God, or that God was once like us, or we get our own solar system, accepted the trinity and monotheism and I took that information as "symbolic". What about then?

andross77 · Mar 6, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
Posted on OP, but also posting here:
For clarification, lets say that as this new Mormon, I did not believe in becoming like God, or that God was once like us, or we get our own solar system, accepted the trinity and monotheism and I took that information as "symbolic". What about then?

Simple, you wouldn't be a Mormon then . That would be like my friend telling me he is a Christian but believes Christ's life was a good example for us and not a sacrifice. We don't need a sacrifice, we just need to "get closer to God on our own". So, he is not a Christian.

It's the same with Muslims that want to live peacefully in America and conveniently forgot about verses in the Koran that say to "kill the infidels" and "don't have any association with the Christians or Jews". They don't understand their scriptures, or they understand them and choose to ignore them. Hence, they are NOT a muslim.

Call yourself "i follow my own line of thinking" or my religion is "me-ism". But if you want to be a Christian, you must belief in the "essentials of faith" (i.e. we are all sinners, jesus is the ONLY son of God and the ONLY way to God, He died for our sin, rose again on the third day. if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that He is Lord, we are saved, etc)

If you want to be a Mormon, you must believe the Bible AND the Book of Mormon (there are contradictions between the 2, but it doesn't matter. Their articles of faith say both are equally inspired by God). So if you "pick and choose" what parts of a religion to believe (like this makes me uncomfortable so i won't believe it. I'm fine with that b/c it fits with my personality so i'll believe that) in then you are not really a follower of said religion. You make up your own rules as you go along...

make sense?
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BereanTodd · Mar 6, 2007

Jedi said:
I'm not so sure about that. It all depends on how you define "Christian." If all being a Christian involves is following Christ as presented in the New Testament and accepting His Lordship and forgiveness of their sins, then Mormons fall under that category, even if they're mistaken on a number of important theological matters.

So how do you define "Christian?" You figure that out and you'll have your answer to not only this question but a myriad of others.

I disagree; they may use the name of Christ, but the Christ they profess does not exist. They believe in a false god (little 'g' intentional), it's that simple.

A New Dawn · Mar 6, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
Okay, this is hypothetical, but let's say this very second I suddenly became a Mormon. Who knows why, I just do, and yet I still follow the Nicene Creed and still believe in the Holy Trinity.

Would that make the person here a Christian still?

EDIT: For clarification, lets say that as this new Mormon, I did not believe in becoming like God, or that God was once like us, or we get our own solar system, accepted the trinity and monotheism and I took that information as "symbolic". What about then?

I believe that the LDS church has errant doctrine, and I do not believe that the HS will lead one to errant doctrine. It seeks to lead people to Christ, not to ambiguous doctrine that is full of error.

That being said, I agree with the person who stated that what makes one a Christian is their relationship with Christ, and being a Calvinist, I believe that that relationship cannot fail. However, because we will continually have to fight with the old man, and because, when we become Christian we automatically have a big old target on our back, we have to constantly fight with Satan, who will attempt to confuse us so that we do not clearly hear the whispers of the HS. That confusion could lead us in way that are not always confined to the straight and narrow, but it does not end the relationship. God will claim His own at the last day.

icedtea · Mar 6, 2007

My. If I woke and realized I was a mormon, I would imagine I was a christian, and all non mormons weren't, but I wouldn't realize my error at all. God would have to help me.
Do not give me such scary thoughts late at night!

freespiritchurch · Mar 7, 2007

andross77 said:
Simple, you wouldn't be a Mormon then . That would be like my friend telling me he is a Christian but believes Christ's life was a good example for us and not a sacrifice. We don't need a sacrifice, we just need to "get closer to God on our own". So, he is not a Christian.

It's the same with Muslims that want to live peacefully in America and conveniently forgot about verses in the Koran that say to "kill the infidels" and "don't have any association with the Christians or Jews". They don't understand their scriptures, or they understand them and choose to ignore them. Hence, they are NOT a muslim.

Call yourself "i follow my own line of thinking" or my religion is "me-ism". But if you want to be a Christian, you must belief in the "essentials of faith" (i.e. we are all sinners, jesus is the ONLY son of God and the ONLY way to God, He died for our sin, rose again on the third day. if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that He is Lord, we are saved, etc)

If you want to be a Mormon, you must believe the Bible AND the Book of Mormon (there are contradictions between the 2, but it doesn't matter. Their articles of faith say both are equally inspired by God). So if you "pick and choose" what parts of a religion to believe (like this makes me uncomfortable so i won't believe it. I'm fine with that b/c it fits with my personality so i'll believe that) in then you are not really a follower of said religion. You make up your own rules as you go along...

make sense?
</IMG>

Andross, I think you would benefit from looking at what makes someone a Christian in the Bible. Read the stories of conversion and see what people do when they convert, then see if it matches with what you say they need to do.

I would also like to know what qualifications you have to make judgments about whether someone is a true Muslim or not.

Alan

BereanTodd · Mar 7, 2007

mrconstance said:
Andross, I think you would benefit from looking at what makes someone a Christian in the Bible. Read the stories of conversion and see what people do when they convert, then see if it matches with what you say they need to do.

I would also like to know what qualifications you have to make judgments about whether someone is a true Muslim or not.

Alan

Easy, faith and trust in Jesus Christ and the finished work of the cross is what saves. The problem is that mormons don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible. Oh, they may use the name, but its another person. It's like if I say "Yes, I trust Jesus", but I really mean Jesus that lives across the street from me. He's not the JEsus who saves. The Jesus that mormons profess does not exist, and hence has no power to save.

tulc · Mar 7, 2007

The reality is mormon, baptist, catholic are all just labels and are beside the point, I believe there are saved Mormons and unsaved Baptists ultimately we are judged (by God) by our relationship with His Son.
tulc(just a thought, and not as nearly cool as Peaceful Dove's posts!)

ByeAndBye · Mar 7, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
Okay, this is hypothetical, but let's say this very second I suddenly became a Mormon. Who knows why, I just do, and yet I still follow the Nicene Creed and still believe in the Holy Trinity.

Would that make the person here a Christian still?

EDIT: For clarification, lets say that as this new Mormon, I did not believe in becoming like God, or that God was once like us, or we get our own solar system, accepted the trinity and monotheism and I took that information as "symbolic". What about then?

Then you wouldn't be LDS, since those are basic tenets of the Mormon beliefs. IOW, you can't be a Mormon and accept the Nicene Creed and not believe that Jesus was just a plain man.

InnocentOdion · Mar 7, 2007

I've heard there are "Protestant-like" Mormons who accept the Trinity, but I'm not sure if they exist; I've heard they do-- as far as I'm aware, Mormons don't take Jesus to be a normal man, but the Son of God and [a] God, or something like that.

I saw this one verse (I have no idea how or where I ended up finding it, can't find the website-- but I've found it elsewhere)

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Note: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post Mormon verses or not, but it's not for preaching, it's for reference. If it's not allowed to put this verse up here, then the mods may the reference or PM me and I'll remove it myself.

This is the thing I saw which got me thinking about could a Mormon accept the Trinity. Reading it gives a hint that they could accept the Trinity, but yet one of their prophets (I'm not sure who) claimed that it was one in unity as opposed to physical, but let's say that he was wrong. Would it stand then?

Aah, they are so confusing! But this is an interesting hypothetical question, I just had to ask, and this is not only would they be Christian, but Christian here as well (rule to accept the Nicene Creed to be Christian).

WarriorAngel · Mar 7, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
Okay, this is hypothetical, but let's say this very second I suddenly became a Mormon. Who knows why, I just do, and yet I still follow the Nicene Creed and still believe in the Holy Trinity.

Would that make the person here a Christian still?

EDIT: For clarification, lets say that as this new Mormon, I did not believe in becoming like God, or that God was once like us, or we get our own solar system, accepted the trinity and monotheism and I took that information as "symbolic". What about then?

I try not to be in a habit of judging...so this question is difficult to answer.

But if I were to show you scriptures that say 'many will come and be false christs and false prophets, do not follow them....'

And this was ignored...well, then WWJD?

To deny the foundation He made on the original and sole Gospels...would be to deny the sufficiency of such.

Not to judge anyone, but I would think it be a dangerous path to travel.

Peace to you.

WarriorAngel · Mar 7, 2007

Let me further reiterate....
AND looking at the passage of Christ telling us not to follow them...

This should be a concisely understood statement from Christ that not all teachings are beneficial, and false teachings should be avoided.
WHY else would He say 'DO NOT GO.'...?

If all truths were equal, why warn to avoid them?

NOW, if we further read into St John who says to avoid strange Gospels, and not to even invite them into our homes so we do not share their errors...

Well, it speaks volumes to me that the Mormons are to be avoided. Their Gospel is strange. It is new...and therefore 'strange' to the original.

Does this make sense to you?

Peace!!

TrueFaith2 · Mar 7, 2007

mrconstance said:
Andross, I think you would benefit from looking at what makes someone a Christian in the Bible. Read the stories of conversion and see what people do when they convert, then see if it matches with what you say they need to do.

Exactly, the teachings of the Mormon Church contradicts the divinity of Jesus Christ from all eternity. If one doesn't hold the beliefs of Mormons, one is not Mormon. And the divinity of Jesus from all eternity contradicts the Mormon beliefs.

andross77 · Mar 7, 2007

mrconstance said:
Andross, I think you would benefit from looking at what makes someone a Christian in the Bible. Read the stories of conversion and see what people do when they convert, then see if it matches with what you say they need to do.

I would also like to know what qualifications you have to make judgments about whether someone is a true Muslim or not.

Alan

Alan,

Where did you get confused when i wrote the "essentials of faith"? The Bible clearly says Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. It says we are saved by graced, through faith, and NOT by works so that no man may boast. It also says, everyone that confesses with their tongue and believes in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord will be saved.

This is what i believe. This is what the Bible teaches.

In reference to your last question, what makes someone a true Muslim or not is how they follow the commands of the leader of their religion. Same with all religions. What makes someone a Christian is if they follow the commands of Christ (the primary one to believe in him to be saved). Someone is a Buddhist if they follow the teachings of Buddha. And someone is a Muslim if they follow the teachings of Mohammed as written in the Koran.

So, when Muslims try to live at peace with Jews and Christians they are specifically DISREGARDING what their holy book teaches. The Muslims that flew planes into the twin towers and killed thousands of innocent people were following EXACTLY what the Koran teaches (See Sura 2:191; 2:193; 8:39) .

So obviously that isn't comfortable for people. So they pick the nice parts (the discipline, the prayer, the conservatism, the meditation, etc) and leave out the nasty parts. Then they call it Islam when it should really be called "me-ism" or "post modernism" or "whatever-i-want-it-to-be-today-ism" .

Hopefully that clears things up. You asked so i wanted to provide a long enough answer so you understand where i'm coming from.

A New Dawn · Mar 7, 2007

InnocentOdion said:
I've heard there are "Protestant-like" Mormons who accept the Trinity, but I'm not sure if they exist; I've heard they do-- as far as I'm aware, Mormons don't take Jesus to be a normal man, but the Son of God and [a] God, or something like that.

I saw this one verse (I have no idea how or where I ended up finding it, can't find the website-- but I've found it elsewhere)

Note: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post Mormon verses or not, but it's not for preaching, it's for reference. If it's not allowed to put this verse up here, then the mods may the reference or PM me and I'll remove it myself.

This is the thing I saw which got me thinking about could a Mormon accept the Trinity. Reading it gives a hint that they could accept the Trinity, but yet one of their prophets (I'm not sure who) claimed that it was one in unity as opposed to physical, but let's say that he was wrong. Would it stand then?

Aah, they are so confusing! But this is an interesting hypothetical question, I just had to ask, and this is not only would they be Christian, but Christian here as well (rule to accept the Nicene Creed to be Christian).

The "Protestant-like Mormons" are RLDS. The church Joseph Smith started shattered when he was killed, and the RLDS are the second largest group that came from that church. They basically accept(ed) the teachings of the church at the time it was organized in 1830 and reject what was added in later, just before JS was killed.

The RLDS do accept the Trinity, though they also believe(d) in a total apostasy, and much else of what the early restoration believed in.

What if you became...

Would this mean the person was a Christian?

Yes

No

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