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But as I have stated if such a person existed then I would state they are neither saved nor condemned but will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them. Nothing is hidden from Him. I know Christianity is known in India.
That's true I do state like you.You can state all you desire. The fact remains, many have never heard the Name of Jesus, nor of Christianity.
"Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
That depends on which scriptures you are looking at.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Hello there Carl. Let's have a closer look, shall we?
Rev 20:15: Anyone not found in the Book of Life cast into the lake of fire.
Right, so that would include unbelieving ppl of the nations, no? Let's check:
Rev 21:8: but the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile etc are consigned to the lake.
Aha! The unbelievers, check. In they go.
Rev 21:24: Look, the nations coming to the New Jerusalem to bring honour, and the kings of the earth their glory!
What the..? The nations are BACK! And subdued to Christ! Surely not.
Rev 22:22b: 'and the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.'
They've been purified in the Lake and come in to bring their honour and be healed with the living in Christ.
How does that grab you, Big Carl, viable or piffle?
Well that sounds very poetic but the scripture does not seem to support the redemption of every living soul as a long term plan.
Did not Paul himself say...
Rom 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
"Not that Paul’s argument there is difficult to follow. What preoccupies him is the agonizing mystery that the Messiah has come, yet so few of the house of Israel have accepted him, while so many Gentiles—outside the covenant—have. What then of God’s faithfulness to his promises? It is not an abstract question regarding who is “saved” and who “damned”: By the end of chapter 11, the former category proves to be vastly larger than that of the “elect,” or the “called,” while the latter category makes no appearance at all. It is a concrete question concerning Israel and the Church. And ultimately Paul arrives at an answer drawn, ingeniously, from the logic of election in Hebrew Scripture.
Before reaching that point, however, in a completely and explicitly conditional voice, he limns the problem in the starkest chiaroscuro. We know, he says, that divine election is God’s work alone, not earned but given; it is not by their merit that Gentile believers have been chosen. “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (9:13)—here quoting Malachi, for whomJacob is the type of Israel and Esau the type of Edom. For his own ends, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. He has mercy on whom he will, hardens whom he will (9:15–18). If you think this unjust, who are you, O man, to reproach God who made you? May not the potter cast his clay for purposes both high and low, as he chooses (9:19–21)? And, so, what if (ei de, quod si) God should show his power by preparing vessels of wrath, solely for destruction, to provide an instructive counterpoint to the riches of the glory he lavishes on vessels prepared for mercy, whom he has called from among the Jews and the Gentiles alike (9:22–24)? Perhaps that is simply how it is: The elect alone are to be saved, and the rest left reprobate, as a display of divine might; God’s faithfulness is his own affair.
Well, so far, so Augustinian. But so also, again, purely conditional: “What if . . . ?” Rather than offering a solution to the quandary that torments him, Paul is simply restating it in its bleakest possible form, at the very brink of despair. But then, instead of stopping here, he continues to question God’s justice after all, and spends the next two chapters unambiguously rejecting this provisional answer altogether, in order to reach a completely different—and far more glorious—conclusion.
Throughout the book of Genesis, the pattern of God’s election is persistently, even perversely antinomian: Ever and again the elder to whom the birthright properly belongs is supplanted by the younger, whom God has chosen in defiance of all natural “justice.” This is practically the running motif uniting the whole text, from Cain and Abel to Manasseh and Ephraim. But—this is crucial—it is a pattern not of exclusion and inclusion, but of a delay and divagation that immensely widens the scope of election, taking in the brother “justly” left out in such a way as to redound to the good of the brother “unjustly” pretermitted. This is clearest in the stories of Jacob and of Joseph, and it is why Esau and Jacob provide so apt a typology for Paul’s argument. For Esau is not finally rejected; the brothers are reconciled, to the increase of both precisely because of their temporary estrangement. And Jacob says to Esau (not the reverse), “Seeing your face is like seeing God’s.”
And so Paul proceeds. In the case of Israel and the Church, election has become even more literally “antinomian”: Christ is the end of the law so that all may attain righteousness, leaving no difference between Jew and Gentile; thus God blesses everyone (10:11–12). As for the believing “remnant” of Israel (11:5), they are elected not as the number of the “saved,” but as the earnest through which all of Israel will be saved (11:26), the part that makes the totality holy (11:16). And, again, the providential ellipticality of election’s course vastly widens its embrace: For now, part of Israel is hardened, but only until the “full entirety” (pleroma) of the Gentiles enter in; they have not been allowed to stumble only to fall, however, and if their failure now enriches the world, how much more so will their own “full entirety” (pleroma); temporarily rejected for “the world’s reconciliation,” they will undergo a restoration that will be a “resurrection from the dead” (11:11–12, 15).
This, then, is the radiant answer dispelling the shadows of Paul’s grim “what if,” the clarion negative: There is no final “illustrative” division between vessels of wrath and of mercy; God has bound everyone in disobedience so as to show mercy to everyone (11:32); all are vessels of wrath so that all may be made vessels of mercy.
Not that one can ever, apparently, be explicit enough. One classic Augustinian construal of Romans 11, particularly in the Reformed tradition, is to claim that Paul’s seemingly extravagant language—“all,” “full entirety,” “the world,” and so on—really still means just that all peoples are saved only in the “exemplary” or “representative” form of the elect. This is, of course, absurd. Paul is clear that it is those not called forth, those allowed to stumble, who will still never be allowed to fall. Such a reading would simply leave Paul in the darkness where he began, reduce his glorious discovery to a dreary tautology, convert his magnificent vision of the vast reach of divine love into a ludicrous cartoon of its squalid narrowness. Yet, on the whole, the Augustinian tradition on these texts has been so broad and mighty that it has, for millions of Christians, effectively evacuated Paul’s argument of all its real content. It ultimately made possible those spasms of theological and moral nihilism that prompted John Calvin to claim (in book 3 of The Institutes) that God predestined even the Fall, and (in his commentary on 1 John) that love belongs not to God’s essence, but only to how the elect experience him. Sic transit gloria Evangelii.
When and where and who?
I assume for you to know that you had a conversation about Jesus so I guess that person now has heard of Jesus while in the life of the body and is not someone who has died never having heard of Jesus.
I have yet to meet such a person who has never heard of Christianity or Jesus.
Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Traditio Deformis | David Bentley Hart
"I respectfully view your interpretation as the opposite of most careful Bible students, who recognize here and in its' OT context, God's ability to have mercy however he pleases is precisely that he can choose to have it toward those completely undeserving, such as those you see as "wicked God haters." Indeed, Paul's express point in speaking of those God hates and hardens and those He loves and chooses, Issac vs. Esau, is that Issac whom God loves is not the most wicked or deserving one, but a scoundrel chosen before he ever did anything. He further makes clear that those who experience such a puzzling 'hardening' are not those rejected by God, or consigned to 'hell,' but in chapter 11 that the point of all such binding people over to disobedience is that God will "have mercy upon everyone."
I guess it is a matter of calling - others are far better equipped to tussle with these issues, I am better at seeing folks released from bondage and walking with joy in Jesus.
Yes, we are called to share the good news, but the fate of the unbeliever is a valid motivation to obey His call to make Him known.
I must say, however, i have never felt to incorporate issues around Hell into dialogue with the lost - this doesn't sit well with me at all.
As a universalist i also believe in the Scriptures re "hell". But is "fire insurance" the primary or only reason to "love" Jesus? "Either love Me or i'll show you the inquisition chamber forever!"
Perhaps you've never encountered any unbelievers who thought the endless torturing God was not worthy of any respect & a hypocrite. There are many millions of them. Likewise many churchgoers have quit God over the same reason.
I don't knowCorrect me if I am wrong but there are still quite few tribal languages in New Guinea to be translated?
I'm guessing that the view of the creed writers would best inform the interpretation of the creed. What do we suppose was the view of the creed writers? Damnationist, or Universalist?I'm disputing that equating the duration of the fire with ultimate destiny of the wicked is 'the honest way to interpret the creed' (as per Basil's opinion).
No one is Big save Him...
You would need to substantiate that the Lake of fire is for refinement not punishment.
I have clearly stated my position, again we can find 'support' for either view so best to hand the questions upstairs and see what He says.
I'm guessing that the view of the creed writers would best inform the interpretation of the creed. What do we suppose was the view of the creed writers? Damnationist, or Universalist?
Jesus gets around and the Spirit bears witness of Him to all peoples.2018 the following comment made...
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Parker, a senior at Oklahoma Christian University, spent his summer interning with Pioneer Bible Translators, a nonprofit working to translate Scripture into the world’s 1,600 languages that don’t have a complete Bible.
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So well over 1000 languages yet to have a bible.
Clearly there is a Christian presence in Papua New Guinea. (Bible college and churches) If one that truly has never heard of Jesus dies Jesus will make a judgment concerning them.2018 the following comment made...
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Parker, a senior at Oklahoma Christian University, spent his summer interning with Pioneer Bible Translators, a nonprofit working to translate Scripture into the world’s 1,600 languages that don’t have a complete Bible.
===============================
So well over 1000 languages yet to have a bible.
Yes, of course. But as we know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Never was that saying more fitting than here. - lolAh, my brother, are we not entitled to presume that the Creed writers intended to give maximum glory to God? And if that indeed be the case, then the answer is perfectly simple, is it not?
If I remember correctly, you said the pit was empty. Is that right?Yes, we are called to share the good news, but the fate of the unbeliever is a valid motivation to obey His call to make Him known.
I must say, however, i have never felt to incorporate issues around Hell into dialogue with the lost - this doesn't sit well with me at all.
In a way - wickedness in the Church is worse than wickedness in the world. I have spoken about being led by an angel in a dream and 'seeing' the rim of the pit, in church, and you could have heard a pin drop, but i have never felt to share this with a seeker. The dream motivated me to care for the lost, not condemn them.
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