I didn't refer to other religions (or lack of one) as we all are infected with sin and face death, and have a common Savior who according to John 1:9 enlightens each person coming into the world. If they reject that understanding/light it is their own dime. He is the Logos (Word).But these people weren't just obedient to some inner light or other. Christian theology (and, arguably, the Bible specifically) provide for their salvation. There is no comparison to members of other religions in our own times or to atheists who happen to be charitable and fairminded, etc.
I referred to other religions because they had been referenced by other posters earlier in the thread when the question was asked about the possibility that such non-believers could be saved.I didn't refer to other religions (or lack of one) as we all are infected with sin and face death, and have a common Savior who according to John 1:9 enlightens each person coming into the world. If they reject that understanding/light it is their own dime. He is the Logos (Word).
People are either saved or not saved regardless of religion or whether they live during OT or NT times. Romans 2-5 makes that quite clear.I referred to other religions because they had been referenced by other posters earlier in the thread when the question was asked about the possibility that such non-believers could be saved.
Then you brought up the names of people in the Old Testament.
It is important not to confuse the two groups, mainly because the Christian religion has a view of the status of the latter group, who are unlike other non-believers. We consider the people you named to be people God considers justified although they lived before the coming of the Savior. Christian theology has a place for them, if not for the other group.
I think you're going to have to explain what you mean about that verse.People are either saved or not saved regardless of religion or whether they live during OT or NT times. Romans 2-5 makes that quite clear.
Why?I think you're going to have to explain what you mean about that verse.
"But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, (Romans 2:5)
Hi Alisha! That's a great question, and in the past, I've answered this with my own philosophically inclined answer, one that while a little different from the typical evangelical response is, nevertheless, one that I think is in accordance with what we find in the Bible overall. So, here is a 'reprint' of my answer to this from a short while back, only slightly edited ...
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Since it is very difficult to see the details in the Big Picture of God's economy of salvation (soteriology), I'd propose that the Church take a more ambiguous approach to the lost, but an approach which nevertheless requires that Christians feel a deep-seated need to reach "the lost." And in this approach, I suggest that we simply define those who will never hear of Christ as a distinct group from those will hear the Gospel on a sufficient level. Then, we more or less classify those who will never hear of Christ, or have never heard the Gospel in a sufficient manner, as "Unidentifiables."
We should classify those who will never hear sufficiently as "Unidentifiables" because from a human point of view, we as the Church do not know, and cannot know, precisely how God will judge each "Unidentifiable" at the Final Judgment. They each stand as a "?" before the Church since we do not have enough detail in the Bible to give us a definitive and comprehensive way to know how "Unidentifiables" will ultimately be judged by God; it could go either way. Despite their ongoing spiritual anonymity before the Church, they are each an individual for whom we can pray in the hope that God in His mercy will accept them according to the light He has provided to each of them during their individual lives.
As for those persons who have heard, I think this group is made up of two categories: The "Acceptors" and the "Objectors." In the case of the accepting, we have confidence as to where they square in gaining eternal life in Christ. But, as for the objecting, we in the Church know they will not likely gain God's favor in Christ at the Final Judgment.
Thus, with this approach, we take the weight off of having to understand the full economy of God's grace as it relates to the availability of the (clear) Gospel message; we won't have to wring our hands as we try to answer the time worn question of "What happens to those who've never heard?" We do indeed leave it in the hands of God. Yet, this approach retains the urgency of the Church's need to continue its God directed effort to reach out in love and truth on behalf of Christ to those on all sides of the international and spiritual spectrum. It also is more honest and may be more appealing as a truthful explanation about "Unidentifiables."
That's my approach. It's simpler, and it's more philosophically practical -- although I'm open to theological criticisms and other considerations.
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Blessings,
2PhiloVoid
You're right Alisha.
The answer is in Romans 1:19-20.
God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man.
And man has always had the opportunity to reply with a Yes or a No.
Also, remember that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...even those that live without knowledge of the gospel.
1 John 2:2
Paul makes it easy to understand.I am talking with a Catholic on discussing what happens to the natives who never heard of Christ. Nowadays there are few people who don't have access to learning about Christ, whether it's through the internet or by a missionary or friend, but the Native Americans, Mayans, and all those people who were previously in this country didn't know about our God. Now I believe it is in human nature to acknowledge the Creator, no matter what they have learned in their society after all the earth shouts of His glory and testifies of His lovingkindness. (Is. 6:3, Ps. 119:64). But my question is, was it possible for them to be saved by just living off of their acknowledgment of a creator and their consciousness to do good instead of evil? Because John 14:6 says "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Wouldn't this be a contradiction if those natives were saved without ever learning about Jesus, the Son of God?
And if the natives weren't saved, because of their rebellion in their hearts, because not one man is innocent or ever has been except Jesus, wouldn't it be unjust to give some people the opportunity of hearing the Truth and others not?
In Romans, it discusses how the people are judged by their own law in their hearts.. but that will condemn everyone who hasn't surrendered their sins to Jesus.
"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Romans 2: 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
What is the correct, biblical way to answer this question? I've been asked this question multiple times, I believed that the natives were judged by the law written in their own hearts and conscience but that seems to be in contradiction with John 14:6, it seems flippant to say there are exceptions in salvation unless I have scriptural evidence.
Thank you,
God bless you all,
Paul makes it easy to understand.
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
To suppress the truth, you must first possess it!
19because what may be known of God is manifest in them,
for God has shown it to them. The truth of God manifest to every man without exception!
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
Clearly seen and understood by every one of us.
even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Nobody has any excuse for denying the eternal creator God.
Paul is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit as He convicts and draws all men to their creator.
This is not a work on man's intellect, but direct on man's human spirit. Thus all men have sufficient truth to turn to God, and that surrendering to God triggers new birth.
The price paid for that to happen was the blood of the lamb, the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.
John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
As John makes abundantly clear, Jesus is that creator God. So when men turn to their creator, they are turning to Jesus even if at that time, they don't recognise Jesus as such.
Despite what is taught, neither John, nor Paul, nor Jesus himself, make new birth contingent on understanding the cross!
In fact, Paul makes it clear that nobody can understand the cross, till after they receive new birth!
wouldn't it be unjust to give some people the opportunity of hearing the Truth and others not?
In our idea of time here, we think of sequential time.That is a fascinating passage to me, but I can't find it supported anywhere else in the Bible that people get a second chance after death to accept Christ. Or was it an exception for the people in the days of Noah? Because I know when Jesus died, he went to Hell because he conquered the grave and got the keys of Hades so maybe he ministered to all those people that weren't jews or never knew God?
I'm not sure He still ministers to the spirits in prison because now He is resurrected..
@Alisha1174852 gave me a like and she gave you a like.I agree that God reveals Himself to all, but I think some aren't open to faith. The fact that the world and all its splendor is there before them, doesn't give them faith. Faith comes from God, but evidently not to everyone.
The whole world doesn't mean every individual. I believe it refers to people in every part of the world.
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 10:26-27
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
I agree with you 100%.I believe he gives all the opportunity but it's how and when.
It's easy for Christian's to say, "too bad for them, but they're going to hell." I just don't see it that way. I spent some years of my earlier life taking the Gospel to unreached areas of the world.
We man think we've preached the Gospel to someone, and walk away justified, but its more than that. A man in a village is asked "do you know who Jesus is?" He answers, "No but maybe he lives in that village over there." Yes preaching and understanding the Gospel are two different things. Sometimes we lack communication skills, and yes many have not understood the Gospel.
There's the saying that the people we expect to see in heaven may not be there, and the people we did not expect to see in heaven we may.
It's easy the think we know the Bible and the answers are just black and white. There not.
One thing is sure is that God love's all the same, and there is no favoritism with him. He is just, so somehow will give a fair chance to every soul that's every existed to enter his Kingdom. He is Lord.
I agree with this, God wants everyone to come to Him and He loves everyone, and because It is of our own free will to pursue Him and I believe for each man He has created a path to take to get to know Him.I agree with you 100%.
Romans 1:19-20 confirms this.
But I see that @Alisha1174852 has also given you a like.
So, she's either giving everybody a like.
OR
she doesn't comprehend post no. 27.
God would want ALL to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.
But not all will --- of their own free will.
Thank you! i will read it!Good Day, Alisha
RC Sproul answers these types of questions here:
The Innocent Native by R.C. Sproul
Thank you! i will read it!
God bless you!
It is Audio/Video presentation...
I'm happy to hear the above because post no. 27 does not agree with you. You should read it again....I agree with this, God wants everyone to come to Him and He loves everyone, and because It is of our own free will to pursue Him and I believe for each man He has created a path to take to get to know Him.
yes I have rated all the posts because everyone has been extremely helpful and kind, even if I don’t agree with some 100% I still rate their post as liked or friendly.
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