What Happens if Christians Ignore the Teachings of Jesus?

chestertonrules · Aug 6, 2008

[

quote=nobdysfool;48102209]Just as in the time of Elijah, God had reserved to Himself those who did not have it wrong.

Because they got caught up in the minutia of the hierarchal entity that Jesus did not authorize (despite your claims to the contrary), and were seduced away from their first love, Christ, to the traditions of men, rituals and empty structure, which, as Jesus said of the Pharisees, was whitewashed and beautiful on the outside, but inside was full of dead men's bones..

[/QUOTE]

So was the authority of St. Augustine unauthorized? How about St. Ignatius? St. Clement of Rome?

Are you saying even those who knew the apostles were seduced away from the faith?

At what point did Christianity lose its way in you opinion?

nobdysfool · Aug 6, 2008

chestertonrules said:
So was the authority of St. Augustine unauthorized? How about St. Ignatius? St. Clement of Rome?

Are you saying even those who knew the apostles were seduced away from the faith?

At what point did Christianity lose its way in you opinion?

Authority comes from God, not from men. As for when they "lost their way", I would point to the time of Constantine. Before then, there was a certain amount of hierarchal and ecclesiastical structure that was most likely more than was prudent or necessary, but there were also men of faith such as Augustine, Ignatius and Clement who helped shape understanding of scripture, and did teach Truth. I don't discount such men, nor did Calvin or Luther. What the Catholic Church was in Luther's and Calvin's day was a distorted, twisted caricature of the Church in Augustine's or Clement's day. What the Catholic Church was doing then would in no way have been authorized or endorsed by Paul, Peter, or any of the original Apostles. Surely you know that. Shame on you if you don't.

Calvinism owes much to Augustine. Or didn't you know that?

mattlock73 · Aug 6, 2008

calluna said:
Peter's personal failure was not a confusion.

'I do think there was some confusion. As we plainly see in scripture, Peter and Paul were at odds about some things.'

What genuine example(s) of confusion did you have in mind?

I hardly call that a personal failure, but a doctrinal failure. Peter allowed his doctrine to be influenced by the world, even after a dream in which the Lord said otherwise.

mattlock73 · Aug 6, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. If Satan were able to allow lies to enter his Church, would this violate this promise?

Not at all, because the Church IS Christ. You speak of a hierarchy made up of men, fallible, imperfect and subject to the flesh just like all the rest of us. Of course Satan is able to permeate the church, but not THE Church. How many people sit in a pew for an hour or so on Sunday and don't understand one wit why they are there? Or how many show up not to worship God, but to appease their spouses or business partners? How many pedifile and sexually active priests and nuns are there?

Jesus prayed for unity among believers, that we might be one as he and the father are one. I believe this is only possible within the Catholic Church. This is one of the many reasons that I am confident that my conversion to Catholicism was God's will.

That's exactly the reason I left the RCC, but let me know how that works out for you.

From a historical perspective, you have to ask yourself why God would let all of Christianity be practiced in error for over 1000 years.

Why did God continually let the Israelites stray from the path, worship idols and baal? Why did God's prophets continually warn them they were going astray, yet God for the most part, did little to prevent it?

Why do you think those early Christians got it wrong?

Define which early Christians.

I think your answer can only be that you interpret scripture and the faith differently. The same could be said of Joseph Smith's position as well!

Everyone has their own interpretation of scripture and faith. That's part of how we grow spiritually. If you are constantly being spoon-fed, what have you grown? Even while I was Catholic I recognized that the reason the church did not encourage reading the Bible yourself was because people would begin to question Catholic dogma. Some of that is starting to change now (and I am glad to see it since most of my family is still Catholic), but if you want to ask why "Christianity has been practiced incorrectly for so long" (your words not mine), I think you can lay a big chunk of it at your local parish doorstep.

calluna · Aug 7, 2008

mattlock73 said:
I hardly call that a personal failure, but a doctrinal failure.

What a surprise. No surprise about counting the other 'plain' examples, either.

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Authority comes from God, not from men. As for when they "lost their way", I would point to the time of Constantine. Before then, there was a certain amount of hierarchal and ecclesiastical structure that was most likely more than was prudent or necessary, but there were also men of faith such as Augustine, Ignatius and Clement who helped shape understanding of scripture, and did teach Truth. I don't discount such men, nor did Calvin or Luther. What the Catholic Church was in Luther's and Calvin's day was a distorted, twisted caricature of the Church in Augustine's or Clement's day. What the Catholic Church was doing then would in no way have been authorized or endorsed by Paul, Peter, or any of the original Apostles. Surely you know that. Shame on you if you don't.

Calvinism owes much to Augustine. Or didn't you know that?

The faith of the Catholic Church is the same today as it was in Augustine's day. Calvinists use Augustine like they use the bible, they pick tiny portions of his writings and ignore the majority.

How do you interpret this quote from Ignatius in 110 AD? He was writing about the gnostics in a letter to the Smyrnaeans.

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. For love they have no care, nor for the widow, nor for the orphan, nor for the distressed, nor for those in prison or freed from prison, nor for the hungry and thirsty.[6,2] They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. It would have been better for them to have love, so that they might rise again. It is right to shun such men, and not even speak about them, neither in public or in private. [7,1]
You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid.[8,1]

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

mattlock73 said:
Not at all, because the Church IS Christ. You speak of a hierarchy made up of men, fallible, imperfect and subject to the flesh just like all the rest of us. Of course Satan is able to permeate the church, but not THE Church.

Click to expand...

Jesus founded a Church. He didn't found himself. Your description contradicts scripture. Jesus did establish a hierarchy and he gave the apostles special authority. You would be wise to learn what they taught.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Which Church?

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Why did God continually let the Israelites stray from the path, worship idols and baal? Why did God's prophets continually warn them they were going astray, yet God for the most part, did little to prevent it?

Click to expand...

We have free will. God wants us to choose the correct path, but he won't force us.

Define which early Christians.

Click to expand...

All Christians who were trinitarians in the first 1000 years of Christianity.

Everyone has their own interpretation of scripture and faith. That's part of how we grow spiritually. If you are constantly being spoon-fed, what have you grown? Even while I was Catholic I recognized that the reason the church did not encourage reading the Bible yourself was because people would begin to question Catholic dogma. Some of that is starting to change now (and I am glad to see it since most of my family is still Catholic), but if you want to ask why "Christianity has been practiced incorrectly for so long" (your words not mine), I think you can lay a big chunk of it at your local parish doorstep.

Click to expand...

The Catholic Church unifies Christians with a single interpretation of the faith as passed down from the apostles and Jesus.

The Catholic Church does encourage reading the bible. There are three bible readings in every mass and Catholic Bible studies are common throughout the world. You clearly were not well informed about the Catholic Church at the time you attended. Perhaps you should take some time to actually learn about the faith.

AndOne · Aug 7, 2008

chestertonrules said:
How do you interpret this quote from Ignatius in 110 AD? He was writing about the gnostics in a letter to the Smyrnaeans.

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. For love they have no care, nor for the widow, nor for the orphan, nor for the distressed, nor for those in prison or freed from prison, nor for the hungry and thirsty.[6,2] They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. It would have been better for them to have love, so that they might rise again. It is right to shun such men, and not even speak about them, neither in public or in private. [7,1]
You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid.[8,1]

Am I missing something here? Last time I looked I didn't notice the writings of Ignatius in my Bible - or any other for that matter.

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
Am I missing something here? Last time I looked I didn't notice the writings of Ignatius in my Bible - or any other for that matter.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you claiming that Ignatius was already teaching a false Christianity? For what purpose?

My point is this. Ignatius was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John. Some people think Ignatius knew John as well.

Ignatius, like all the early Christians, belonged to a single body of believers.

Don't you think understanding their beliefs is important if we want to find the truth as passed on by Jesus and the apostles?

Don't you think we need to heed Paul's words here:

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

AndOne · Aug 7, 2008

My point is that Ignatious' writings are NOT scripture. So they hold no authority.

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
My point is that Ignatious' writings are NOT scripture. So they hold no authority.

Here's the authority:

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

What teachings did they pass on by word of mouth and not letter?

In order for us to know, we must study the practices and beliefs of the early Christians.

If Ignatius, who was eaten by lions for his faith, made statements about Christian practices and beliefs, then shouldn't we want to know what he said or wrote? Won't that help us hold fast to the teachings the apostles passed on to us?

Do you think he was a misguided heretic, or a faithful Christian who gave his life for Christ?

mattlock73 · Aug 7, 2008

chestertonrules said:
The Catholic Church unifies Christians with a single interpretation of the faith as passed down from the apostles and Jesus.

Jesus founded a Church. He didn't found himself. Your description contradicts scripture. Jesus did establish a hierarchy and he gave the apostles special authority. You would be wise to learn what they taught.

Which Church?

Peter was not the rock, Christ was the rock, but then we've been over that before. Again, Jesus did not establish a hierarchy of men. If there was only one (worldly) church established by Christ, why then did Paul refer to the churchESin Galatia? Why does Revalation refer to churchES? Wouldn't it have been singular?

We have free will. God wants us to choose the correct path, but he won't force us.

We have free will in some respects, but not when it comes to salvation.

The Catholic Church does encourage reading the bible. There are three bible readings in every mass and Catholic Bible studies are common throughout the world. You clearly were not well informed about the Catholic Church at the time you attended. Perhaps you should take some time to actually learn about the faith.

I am very familiar with the RCC. I went to Catholic schools for 12 years, was an altar boy and a reader at mass. I could have worded my response better, so let me elaborate. While the Catholic church does incorporate readings of the Word into the mass itself, these readings are very limited in scope. The readings do not include any of the NT epistles for example, nor does the entire liturgical cycle (if I remember properly it's 3 years) cover even a significant portion of the OT. What I should have said, is that the RCC did not encourage reading of the Bible by individuals outside of Mass. As I said, some of that has started to change in recent years. I have an uncle who attends a Bible study at his parish, but it is very strictly ordered as to what is covered and what is not. This is to prevent one from using the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for themselves.

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

mattlock73 said:
Peter was not the rock, Christ was the rock, but then we've been over that before. Again, Jesus did not establish a hierarchy of men. If there was only one (worldly) church established by Christ, why then did Paul refer to the churchESin Galatia? Why does Revalation refer to churchES? Wouldn't it have been singular?

We have free will in some respects, but not when it comes to salvation.

I am very familiar with the RCC. I went to Catholic schools for 12 years, was an altar boy and a reader at mass. I could have worded my response better, so let me elaborate. While the Catholic church does incorporate readings of the Word into the mass itself, these readings are very limited in scope. The readings do not include any of the NT epistles for example, nor does the entire liturgical cycle (if I remember properly it's 3 years) cover even a significant portion of the OT. What I should have said, is that the RCC did not encourage reading of the Bible by individuals outside of Mass. As I said, some of that has started to change in recent years. I have an uncle who attends a Bible study at his parish, but it is very strictly ordered as to what is covered and what is not. This is to prevent one from using the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for themselves.

Of course Peter is the rock. Why do you think Jesus changed his name to Rock? Why did he give him the keys to the kingdom?

The Catholic Church reads the entire bible every three years in mass. Of course they read the epistles.

For someone claiming to be raised Catholic, you are very poorly informed about the faith.

Using the "Holy Spirit" leads to chaos because this concept allows anyone to claim that they have found the truth.

Jesus gave his apostles authority to avoid the mass confusion currently dominating the protestant world.

mattlock73 · Aug 7, 2008

chestertonrules said:
The Catholic Church reads the entire bible every three years in mass. Of course they read the epistles.

There must be a new liturgy of the word then, because I never heard one of the epistles read in mass.

Using the "Holy Spirit" leads to chaos because this concept allows anyone to claim that they have found the truth.

So the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion? Interesting.

Jesus gave his apostles authority to avoid the mass confusion currently dominating the protestant world.

Lol, really? Anyone want to buy some indulgences?

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

mattlock73 said:
There must be a new liturgy of the word then, because I never heard one of the epistles read in mass.
So the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion? Interesting.
Lol, really? Anyone want to buy some indulgences?

Human pride is the author of confusion. Rejecting those sent by Jesus leads to confusion. Why are there thousands of protestant denominations all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. My guess is it is not God's fault.

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved almsindulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

mattlock73 · Aug 7, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Human pride is the author of confusion. Rejecting those sent by Jesus leads to confusion. Why are there thousands of protestant denominations all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. My guess is it is not God's fault.

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved almsindulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

So let me see if I've got this right. The Holy Spirit, which doesn't cause confusion, except when mixed with doses of human pride of course, caused Pope Leo X, in direct line of the authority of Jesus Christ and to whom special powers had been granted through the line of Apostolic Succession, to decree that the forgiveness of sins (i.e. salvation in the Catholic Church) could be BOUGHT by giving money to the Church for the rebuilding of St. Peter's Basilica. I see, that makes perfect sense now

chestertonrules · Aug 7, 2008

mattlock73 said:
So let me see if I've got this right. The Holy Spirit, which doesn't cause confusion, except when mixed with doses of human pride of course, caused Pope Leo X, in direct line of the authority of Jesus Christ and to whom special powers had been granted through the line of Apostolic Succession, to decree that the forgiveness of sins (i.e. salvation in the Catholic Church) could be BOUGHT by giving money to the Church for the rebuilding of St. Peter's Basilica. I see, that makes perfect sense now

I don't know the details, but I can assure you that popes are sinners like all the rest of us.

Jesus protects the church in matters of the faith.

The doctrine of the church has remained consistent.

One example: All churches forbid artificial birth control until the 1930s. One by one they have accepted this practice. Abortion and gay marriage are even accepted now in some mainline protestant denominations. The Catholic Church has held firm on doctrines of the faith.

mattlock73 · Aug 8, 2008

chestertonrules said:
I don't know the details, but I can assure you that popes are sinners like all the rest of us.

Jesus protects the church in matters of the faith.

The doctrine of the church has remained consistent.

One example: All churches forbid artificial birth control until the 1930s. One by one they have accepted this practice. Abortion and gay marriage are even accepted now in some mainline protestant denominations. The Catholic Church has held firm on doctrines of the faith.

Right, like protecting pedophiles and gay priests. Like changing it's stance on salvation outside of the RCC. C'mon! Give me a break! The point that the Pope is a sinner like the rest of us is the only valid point in that post. The RCC has changed stance on doctrine throughout the years. Jesus does protect the church, the body of believers, not just the RCC.

BTW - I am still looking online for one catholic liturgical composition that includes the Epistles of the NT, and I cannot find one. As for what I remember from mass, the first reading is from the OT, the second from Psalms and the third from the Gospels. Have they included more readings that I am unaware of in the past 16 years?

bbbbbbb · Aug 8, 2008

A point of information here. In 1982 I was stranded in Chicago and was told to go to St. Peter's RC Church in the Loop where I would be given assistance in getting home. The church is quite magnificent to say the least. In the large marble foyer to the right there was a marble counter like in a bank with three seats for individuals behind the counter. When I got there there was a Franciscan friar at the counter with a person in front of me in line. He was selling masses (indulgences) pure and simple. He also was unable to assist me with my difficulty and I went on my way.

The sale of masses (indulgences) has not ceased to the present day, despite what Catholic apologists might want us to believe.

chestertonrules · Aug 8, 2008

BTW - I am still looking online for one catholic liturgical composition that includes the Epistles of the NT, and I cannot find one. As for what I remember from mass, the first reading is from the OT, the second from Psalms and the third from the Gospels. Have they included more readings that I am unaware of in the past 16 years?[/quote]

Here's a list for this month's readings:

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/inspiration.htm

Many epistle readings included. A gospel reading is always included.

What Happens if Christians Ignore the Teachings of Jesus?

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