Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I did not use the large blue letters in my title because I think they all appear in black and same text size.
It seems to me there is some dispute what the law is. Does "the" word have a specific or limiting meaning to a word following it? Is the law the all inclusive law of God? In this case are the grammer rules of English and Greek different? I wish to have demonstrated through text what the truth is.
bugkiller
I've yet to see any post here that covers every loop hole on anything. Usually even a series of post don't seem to be capable of that.Like "the air", "the water, & "the land",... it needs context to specify, seing as how there is air in water & water in the air, etc.
So we have "the law" in it's broadest possible meaning, & we have "the law" in norrowly specified meaning.
Not giving it enough context is what usualy turns discussions about it into a hot mess.
That's why I dropped the local boys.Patience, my friend. My Internet dropped earlier today and is just now back but don't know how long. Every time the winds blow we lose the Internet, albeit my local line is underground. The whole town looses it, too.
I'll reply to your questions in my next post.
I'm so sorry but your post is too long. I read it. But I don't follow it very well at all.You asked many questions, which will confuse you by answer so I'll address my main point again, and expound on what the "reversal" in law is concerning. It's actually a spiritual flip of the spirit within the body/flesh while the flesh still stands on it's natural feet. This is imagery spoken in contextual language by the prophets interpreted for your edification so please, put your pride aside and read what I write, and especially the scripture references; nothing personal.
The general idea is to imagine a spiritual clone of yourself as a man within a man, like a wheel within a wheel, so to speak. The flesh is seen while the spirit is not. The upright man appears upright in spirit just as he appears outwardly but there comes a "flip" in the spirit which is then, upside down. The spirit is what is in the "heart" which is the spiritual mind of man, and they both must be in harmony as both upright together.
The spirit is what produces utterance from the mouth, and it is written that all mouths that speak blasphemies will be stopped. The mouths that speak against the Lord don't know that they do, rather they see all things as Holy even while flipped upside down, and it's because the entire world alike is flipped so that any single man may not detect anything wrong or out of the ordinary. The upside down mind is of a gentile nature, and cannot keep the Law in the same order as it was originally written in the man but he keeps the Law in reverse "order" as he is witnessed by also a reversal in the two witnesses, which then are not authentic in contrast nor proportional measure.
There is Law and "Order" to consider besides looking only at the Law. It's the ORDER that is reversed, and this affects the mind by the spirit within. There are many prophecies that describe the reversal as in the "ten horns", which is a depiction of the flipped spirit, as the head is then on the earth and the feet in heaven, in this imagery. The prophets did not spell it out as I am doing, rather they spoke in parables that describe the flip. Notice the words used by the prophets and see what they are describing while keeping this imagery in mind.
The man thinks with his feet instead of his mind in a flipped order, in fact all of the ten commandments are reversed when flipped upside down. Liars who draw others to them also cause others to flip but there has come a strong delusion that G-d sent down to the inhabitants of earth that flipped the entire world of minds, and they all think alike, and this caused another order to come by men's works and laws.
This is a large picture to see, and you'll have to look at the big picture so to see this in play, even today it's our current status, spiritually. This is why we are told to live by faith until we are enlightened. If this is not understood then, hopefully in short time you will, I pray.
Here are three references to read and look for the similar imagery in all. They describe the upside down phenomenon and other details. This is not easy to see, and does require deep thought, and as Paul says, "think" on these things.
All of what is written is concerning the mind and knowledge of G-d because G-d's people are destroyed for the lack of it, and He wants all men to come to know this and repent of their ignorance. Satan has educated the world with his knowledge when the "desolation's were seated". Satan changed the minds of men after G-d sent down the strong delusion.
It would be a long post if I were to interpret all three references verse at a time so I have summarized it in this post.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and consider it.
Isaiah 24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the Lord God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isaiah 29
King James Version (KJV)
29 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
Continued next post.
Thanks. The preaching of the law and its misuse has severely damaged my life and well being. God spoke to me directly and said it wasn't my covenant. It still took more than 10 additional years to mostly shake and be free in God's awesome grace. I simply don't find that at religious meetings.Along with Bugkiller, and I also miss "Frogster".
And thanks for the honorable mention of my name. I am flattered.
I call you 3 the most authorative Bible Scripture experts on the law here on CF!
One of my all time favorite threads by Frogster is here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-59/#post58074068
The law is for dead people. lol...
I did not use the large blue letters in my title because I think they all appear in black and same text size.
It seems to me there is some dispute what the law is. Does "the" word have a specific or limiting meaning to a word following it? Is the law the all inclusive law of God? r
Here is a place to make your case then --
[FONT="]
1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes Moses TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16[/FONT]
Good ol' days. Bout fell outta my chair reviewing being told I needed potty training.Along with Bugkiller, and I also miss "Frogster".
And thanks for the honorable mention of my name. I am flattered.
I call you 3 the most authorative Bible Scripture experts on the law here on CF!
One of my all time favorite threads by Frogster is here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-59/#post58074068
The law is for dead people. lol...
.
Why won't you accept the words of God's prophet - Not according to...?One side of the argument would admit to the Bible fact that God's TEN Commandments are included in "The Law of God " that is written on the heart and are called the "Commandments of God" or "The Commandment" - or "The LAw" in the NT.
And so they are included in the LAW of GOD - that is "written on the mind and heart" under the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8.
Many Bible students have also notice that Jesus said in the NT - the Ten Commandments are the "WORD of God" in places like Mark 7:6-13.
Good ol' days. Bout fell outta my chair reviewing being told I needed potty training.
Why won't you accept the words of God's prophet - .
So are you trying to get me to say I lay aside the Word of God? Yes I see your trap. My full answer is I believe every word of the Bible. The problem is you refuse Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets, the Gospels and don't forget Paul. This has been shown over and over. How many of them do I need to list again and again?Some people will accept the reference to the Apostle Paul as just such a prophet of God.
Many Bible students have also notice that Jesus said in the NT - the Ten Commandments are the "WORD of God" in places like Mark 7:6-13.
Yeah we know you're trying to require the keeping of the law for the purpose of salvation. This is forbidden in this forum per Edial. If you need the post its located in latest GT report free thread by him.==================================
Paul makes that same case in Eph 6:1-4 when he quotes Moses verbatim (actually he is quoting God in
Exodus 20:12) and applies this as NT law for the saint. Paul never argues that the scriptures are dead to NT saint and only what Paul writes should be listened to - and this is evidenced by the points below --
True again. Your point is....2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
Is your point the Christian is obligated to them? If so why?3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
Yes and Paul calls the contents of those writings the ministration of death. 2 Cor 3:7 I believe.4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
True. Your point is.....5. Paul quotes Moses TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
Paul isn't saying the 7th day Sabbath is a requirement of the Christian. The word Paul uses is sabbatismos (σαββατισμό▚. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
True and taken out of context to support a false doctrine.7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
The problem here is Paul also says there aren't any in agreement with the Psalms you also throw out. Jesus even showed the same with the rich young ruler even by saying keep the law Mat 19 and 2 other gospels.8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
This is a far cry from requiring its observance. The implication you make here is keeping the law ir required for salvation. Once again this is forbidden in this forum per Edial.9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
Well I've been told not to laugh.10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
[/FONT]
So what? Who cares about statements from them about the Bible.A number of other sources also affirm the fact that the TEN Commandments apply to the saints today and have applied since Eden - .
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?